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35-2 Pre Purchase inspection

pbknowles

New Member
Hello, I am a new member and this is my first post. Wishing the best to all in these odd times. I am hopefully soon (when the boatyard begins admitting visitors again) going to be taking a look at a 35-2. I currently sail an oDay 27 but have been looking to move up in anticipation of future cruising in a couple years when I retire.
I am familiar enough with sailboat rigging, engines and other systems, don't really need help evaluating those, looking for anything specific to look for on the 35-2.
There are a couple 35-2's for sale around the great lakes, and they seem to be priced well below comparables. This may be based solely on condition, but are there any other thoughts on the qualities of this particular model? Sailing qualities? I note that there is a fairly pronounced bustle in the aft section of the hull.
Thanks in advance for any information, it is much appreciated!
Phil
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Welcome aboard! Our 35-2 sailors can be counted on for comment.

When it comes to a specimen, provide the broker listing here. That draws expert opinion about condition and potential issues, and it almost always comes down to boat specifics.
 

garryh

Member III
hi Phil... others will chime in but speaking as a newish 35-2 owner going through it, these boats are well built and sail really really well. They are a bit light and do well in races but you would need to stake steps early not to be overpowered.
They are however well known for wet decks, especially side decks and especially around the chainplates, leading to rotted main bulkheads. This is serious; there are several threads on this. This can be excruciatingly expensive if you are paying a boatyard to do the work. The chainplates themselves are 40 years old and really should be replaced, if not done already. The same with all standing rigging.
The backstay chainplate is imbedded in the solid fiberglass transom and if not well sealed, can be subject to deterioration through crevice corrosion and really no way to investigate its condition.
Many were built with ternplate steel gasoline tanks (if an Atomic 4)... these tanks should be replaced twenty years ago.
Many have experienced rot under the mast base; this shd be investigated thoroughly.
Some have reported serious rust/rot in the steel plate located underside the cockpit to which the steering mechanism/quadrant is mounted.
Others may add to this, but best to have a thorough survey so you know what you are getting into. Old boats are a labour of love, and can be a serious money pit.
Good luck with it... garry
 

garryh

Member III
as things come to me... tanks... both holding and water were small, some ridiculously small holding tanks. Check those out
 

pbknowles

New Member
Thanks for the welcome and replies. We are firm converts to the composting head so the holding tank is not an issue. I am looking for a solid boat to refit over the next couple years so rewiring would be in the cards as well. The one I am most interested in looking at is on Yachtworld in Sister Bay Wisconsin. The broker says it is owned by an older couple who haven't used it for a few years but it has been stored indoors. Broker claims it has been at their marina for many years and only used a few short months in the summer. The photos seem to support this. It has not been updated at all, e.g. no electronics or funky added on wiring which is fine for my purposes. It is fitted with a Universal diesel. They are asking only $13K.
 

garryh

Member III
that was near the end of the run of the 35-2's before Ericson went to the 3.
Bonus having the diesel in stead of A4. I seem to remember that boat in a thread on here some time ago, though not sure. Looks like it has been painted..? the decks might have been done then.
leaking ports btw is another common issue... seal kits available at Catalina Direct.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I notice that the E35-2s on Yacht World all seem to be in the $15K resale value range.

This has implications for getting back any money spent on renovation of a $13K boat.

In this case that probably starts at 6K for basic sails, 3K for rigging, 3K for upholstery -- which doesn't include the surveyor's findings, which are unknown, and have to be dealt with in order to obtain insurance required by marinas.

It can make more financial sense to find a $25K boat already renovated, or at least in "above average condition."

Just a bystander's note. Nothing makes sense once you fall in love with a boat, but when still emotionally viable addition still works.
 
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kapnkd

kapnkd

Photos look pretty good. Seems to be a clean and cared for boat. I like that the cabin top is unlike earlier models and has the raised fiberglass molding for forward, main salon and companion way. (Older models had Teak which was/is difficult to keep from leaking water into the headliner and down the cabin trunk sides.)

The steering quadrant and block supports are very solid looking...Wonder if that is factory or a PO fix/upgrade??

NICE prop!!! Feathering reduces drag without the sometimes hassle of a folding prop failing to unfold.

At $13k, there’s a lot of wiggle room to fix what a good marine survey might find - IF you are going to keep her for a while.

Definitely give it a going over with a moisture meter if NOT getting a marine survey (not recommended for any boat you buy)

Good luck and welcome to EYO!
 

pbknowles

New Member
Thanks for all the replies!
"but when still emotionally viable addition still works" oh boy, I've been on both sides of that line before!

Christian brings forward a question which I was hoping would come up....why are these so "inexpensive"? Everything discussed here so far is typical old boat problems, there doesn't seem to be some fatal flaw lurking in the wings, yet I have looked at many other boats in this size range which were in worse shape than this one appears to be, but the asking prices were significantly higher.

I wonder if someone could comment on initial stability. While I realize that these are on the lighter end of the scale for their size the B/D and other numbers would seem to indicate fair initial stability?

With respect to the advice on getting a survey, acknowledged! I am keen to go and take that initial look however.
My training is in Mechanical Engineering but I really enjoy working with my hands so outside of my day job in the Aerospace industry I have spent many years restoring vintage cars and of course sailboat projects so I feel like my initial review (taking into account the good model specific advice received here so far) can at least weed out the more obvious problems.

Thanks again!
 

garryh

Member III
looking at those pics brings to mind another 35-2 idiosyncracies... the 'missing stanchion'.
You will notice the long expanse of lifeline from the gate to the next stanchion well forward. Ericson cheaped out on this I believe... but the result is the lifelines draped on the shrouds midships which is far from ideal. While doing deckwork I am moving the gate aft to the front end of the cockpit for easier boarding, and am installing an additional stanchion just behind the shrouds. I am going to have to wait until the boat is in the water and the mast up for the final installation because will need to get the angle of the stanchion base mounting plate accurate to place the lifelines just outboard of the shrouds.
 

garryh

Member III
(you will also notice the DC panel and battery selector switch conveniently located in the far corner behind the icebox. Many have enclosed the area by the nav station and installed all electrics there)
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
Thanks for all the replies!
"but when still emotionally viable addition still works" oh boy, I've been on both sides of that line before!

Christian brings forward a question which I was hoping would come up....why are these so "inexpensive"? Everything discussed here so far is typical old boat problems, there doesn't seem to be some fatal flaw lurking in the wings, yet I have looked at many other boats in this size range which were in worse shape than this one appears to be, but the asking prices were significantly higher.

I wonder if someone could comment on initial stability. While I realize that these are on the lighter end of the scale for their size the B/D and other numbers would seem to indicate fair initial stability?

With respect to the advice on getting a survey, acknowledged! I am keen to go and take that initial look however.
My training is in Mechanical Engineering but I really enjoy working with my hands so outside of my day job in the Aerospace industry I have spent many years restoring vintage cars and of course sailboat projects so I feel like my initial review (taking into account the good model specific advice received here so far) can at least weed out the more obvious problems.

Thanks again!


Our ‘73 E 32-II is similar in design proportions and with a ballast weight of 9800 lbs. Owned her since new, sailed her extensively through the Bahamas, both sides of Southern Florida and now in the Great Lakes. YES...a bit more tender than some boats but nothing I’ve ever felt uncomfortable with in any weathers I’ve encountered (and we’ve had our share of storms).

Once she gets her shoulder down and on her sailing lines, she steadies out nicely.

Secret is to also reduce your sail area a little earlier than the heavier keeled boats. Also, our 32 drives and balances better with just the headsail than just the main as the winds stiffen up.

I’m sure other 35 owners can/will better tell you more specifically about the 35’s handling characteristics as well shortly.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Thanks for all the replies!
"but when still emotionally viable addition still works" oh boy, I've been on both sides of that line before!

Christian brings forward a question which I was hoping would come up....why are these so "inexpensive"? Everything discussed here so far is typical old boat problems, there doesn't seem to be some fatal flaw lurking in the wings, yet I have looked at many other boats in this size range which were in worse shape than this one appears to be, but the asking prices were significantly higher.

I wonder if someone could comment on initial stability. While I realize that these are on the lighter end of the scale for their size the B/D and other numbers would seem to indicate fair initial stability?

With respect to the advice on getting a survey, acknowledged! I am keen to go and take that initial look however.
My training is in Mechanical Engineering but I really enjoy working with my hands so outside of my day job in the Aerospace industry I have spent many years restoring vintage cars and of course sailboat projects so I feel like my initial review (taking into account the good model specific advice received here so far) can at least weed out the more obvious problems.

Thanks again!
Regarding pricing: All boats over a certain age, maybe about 25 years in round numbers, see quite a drop in market pricing. There are both practical and illogical reasons. Pragmatic point: there are very few used boats maintained in "original condition" -- small %. I have managed our 150 moorage for many years, and can count on two hands, max, the boats that are 100% turn-key. Degradation is so slow for most major maintenance items that owners turn a blind eye to it. Worse, entropy for anything in or on salt water moves faster than for something stored on land. The decline is slower for boats used in fresh water, but still going on. There are few enough knowledgeable buyers to keep the price low for this 96% of the used market. In a declining market, as we have had for over 20 years in sailboats, there are also fewer knowledgeable buyers. Due to a mix or societal and economic factors, sailing as a family sport has trended downward for many years.

And then there is a factor that very few brokers will even mention, unless really prompted: basic Engineering, Build Quality, and Design for Sailing.
Once the market started to skew towards large-interior and mediocre-sailing designs that were selling to people with limited sailing knowledge who simply wanted to view themselves as "sailors", builders found that they could build weaker and slower boats and make a better profit in this constricting market. While every modern/surviving builder has a few models actually known for their sailing ability, most of the "Hunta-Cata-Benolina" boats are aimed at this sailor-wanna-be market.
Note that larger boats now are marketed specifically to a second home market. The owners seldom leave the dock, and those that do use their boat in a somewhat narrow Performance Envelope with a wind range of 10 to 15 kts and seas under 2 feet.
Good news is that their second home sails reasonable well in that specific envelope, absent the ability to point very well.

Like it or not, this has affected the market like a sort of "Gresham's Law". Knowledgeable owners of Good Old Boats keep them a long time - several decades is not uncommon. And in many cases, they invest serious $$ into upkeep.

New sailors, including those who really want to sail, see few good boats at dealers and brokerages, and the brokers (needing a sale in order to make a living) are not going to spend/waste too much time educating a buyer on the boats. After all, if he/she has an inventory of 20 cheap boats and one Ericson/Sabre/Hinterhoeller/C&C, (and some others).... the sales time has to go towards making a living.
I used to know several brokers who were in it full time when I did some part time brokering of small boats, and the wry humor was that for a typical unrealistic shopper, the Third Broker would sell him a boat, after he initially rejected the well-intentioned advice from the first two, and was embarrassed to return to them to buy something!
:(
Which is a roundabout way of saying that there have never been a very high % of knowledgeable shoppers. And was back in 1981.

Now, decades into the flooding of the used sailboat market with poor boats that are accepted as 'normal' by brokers and magazines needing to keep their slim ad revenues working, The good boats have been devalued because, in effect, they are less suited to a live aboard lifestyle.

This can be good news if shopping for a high-end boat with actual sailing prowess.

Stability -- for better or worse the public conception of this has never been too informed, and it's worse nowadays. If you have a hull with slack bilges it will heel some when you step on the deck. This is initial stability. When it heels to 15 degrees going to weather and then is really reluctant to heel any further that's final stability. Newbies really like something that does not move when they step onto it. Once they sail a lot, they will begin to see the tradeoff. Starting out in a Ranger 20, I raced and cruised for five years amidst an equally large fleet of Catalina 22's. The Ranger would heel and then stiffen up a lot and steered easy. The Catalina has a flatter bottom and a harder chine and felt more 'reassuring' when you stepped aboard, but had more helm difficulties as the wind went over 12 kts. It also had, due to this shape, more wetted surface and was slower in light air.
Owners of either design were very happy, but for somewhat different reasons.
Aside: a older smaller Cal-20 fleet would race weeknights with us sometimes. Faster design on some points, but the Rangers could catch them off the wind with spinnakers up. Lesson was that ALL boats are compromises.

Condition is always going to be very important, but for design alone, keep in mind that in many "lists" of the best production sail boats of all time, the King-designed Ericson 35-2, is always there. It was ahead of its time in some key ways, and avoided the disadvantages of many of the other IOR-focused boats of the era. Yes, that is just an opinion; worth about one cent with Monday discount.
Whatever you buy, do stick around and talk to us! You are asking the 'right' questions.
:D

And... Stanchions.... Back in the early 70's (date not remembered) racing rules started to require lifelines. This raised the selling price for all boats. With a minimum distance rule-specified between stanchions, many builders would seize the wire to an outer shroud at that point, since shrouds on the boats designed in the 60's era had chainplates at or near the toe rail. As the IOR "look" because popular with buyers, the wider boats needed another stanchion at that point.
 
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kapnkd

kapnkd
(you will also notice the DC panel and battery selector switch conveniently located in the far corner behind the icebox. Many have enclosed the area by the nav station and installed all electrics there)

For sure. Looking at the 35 nav station photos, there seems to be more than enough room. On our smaller 32-II we also moved everything over to the port side by converting the small storage cabinet (which was always cluttered) into our electric/electronics area. We upgraded to a Blue Seas panel with AC & DC combined and have rewired everything except wires encapsulated in the glass headliner. We still have an open storage area down low for essential easy to grab items.

We designed it with a drop down panel as well for ease of access to service or add more items later (extra slots still available on panel)
No more hodge-podge of wiring here and there to all that was added or changed out over the years.

I sure do envy that nav station layout on the 35! :egrin:

6ADCA808-CCD7-4F09-9BBA-E4D67B7ED170.jpegDAE41C69-11BA-4DAA-AFDE-136F2AB80CBB.jpeg1B2C6AA3-725D-48D1-8AA9-2E7F7D8ACD4C.jpeg
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
Regarding pricing: All boats over a certain age, maybe about 25 years in round numbers, see quite a drop in market pricing. There are both practical and illogical reasons. Pragmatic point: there are very few used boats maintained in "original condition" -- small %. I have managed our 150 moorage for many years, and can count on two hands, max, the boats that are 100% turn-key. Degradation is so slow for most major maintenance items that owners turn a blind eye to it. Worse, entropy for anything in or on salt water moves faster than for something stored on land. The decline is slower for boats used in fresh water, but still going on. There are enough knowledgeable buyers to keep the price low for this 96% of the used market. In a declining market, as we have had for over 20 years in sailboats, there are also fewer knowledgeable buyers. Due to a mix or societal and economic factors, sailing as a family sport has trended downward for many years.

And then there is a factor that very few brokers will even mention, unless really prompted: basic Engineering, Build Quality, and Design for Sailing.
Once the market started to skew towards large-interior and mediocre-sailing designs that were selling to people with limited sailing knowledge who simply wanted to view themselves as "sailors", builders found that they could build weaker and slower boats and make a better profit in this constricting market. While every modern/surviving builder has a few models actually known for their sailing ability, most of the "Hunta-Cata-Benolina" boats are aimed at this sailor-wanna-be market.
Note that larger boats now are marketed specifically to a second home market. The owners seldom leave the dock, and those that do use their boat in a somewhat narrow Performance Envelope with a wind range of 10 to 15 kts and seas under 2 feet.
Good news is that their second home sails reasonable well in that specific envelope, absent the ability to point very well.

Like it or not, this has affected the market like a sort of "Gresham's Law". Knowledgeable owners of Good Old Boats keep them a long time - several decades is not uncommon. And in many cases, they invest serious $$ into upkeep.

New sailors, including those who really want to sail, see few good boats at dealers and brokerages, and the brokers (needing a sale in order to make a living) are not going to spend/waste too much time educating a buyer on the boats. After all, if he/she has an inventory of 20 cheap boats and one Ericson/Sabre/Hinterhoeller/C&C, (and some others).... the sales time has to go towards making a living.
I used to know several brokers who were in it full time when I did some part time brokering of small boats, and the wry humor was that for a typical unrealistic shopper, the Third Broker would sell him a boat, after he initially rejected the well-intentioned advice from the first two, and was embarrassed to return to them to buy something!
:(
Which is a roundabout way of saying that there have never been a very high % of knowledgeable shoppers. And was back in 1981.

Now, decades into the flooding of the used sailboat market with poor boats that are accepted as 'normal' by brokers and magazines needing to keep their slim ad revenues working, The good boats have been devalued because, in effect, they are less suited to a live aboard lifestyle.

This can be good news if shopping for a high-end boat with actual sailing prowess.

Stability -- for better or worse the public conception of this has never been too informed, and it's worse nowadays. If you have a hull with slack bilges it will heel some when you step on the deck. This is initial stability. When it heels to 15 degrees going to weather and then is really reluctant to heel any further that's final stability. Newbies really like something that does not move when they step onto it. Once they sail a lot, they will begin to see the tradeoff. Starting out in a Ranger 20, I raced and cruised for five years amidst an equally large fleet of Catalina 22's. The Ranger would heel and they stiffen up and steered easy. The Catalina has a flatter bottom and a harder chine and felt more 'reassuring' when you stepped aboard, but had more helm difficulties as the wind went over 12 kts. It also had, due to this shape, more wetted surface and was slower in light air.
Owners of either design were very happy, but for somewhat different reasons.
Aside: a older smaller Cal-20 fleet would race weeknights with us sometimes. Faster design on some points, but the Rangers could catch them off the wind with spinnakers up. Lesson was that ALL boats are compromises.

Condition is always going to be very important, but for design alone, keep in mind that in many "lists" of the best production sail boats of all time, the King-designed Ericson 35-2, is always there. It was ahead of its time in some key ways, and avoided the disadvantages of many of the other IOR-focused boats of the era. Yes, that is just an opinion; worth about one cent with Monday discount.
Whatever you buy, do stick around and talk to us! You are asking the 'right' questions.
:D

And... Stanchions.... Back in the early 70's (date not remembered) racing rules started to require lifelines. This raised the selling price for all boats. With a minimum distance rule-specified between stanchions, many builders would seize the wire to an outer shroud at that point, since shrouds on the boats designed in the 60's era had chainplates at or near the toe rail. As the IOR "look" because popular with buyers, the wider boats needed another stanchion at that point.

Well written Loren! Great perspective based on knowledge and experiences. SAIL or Cruising World could turn this into an article as well!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Well written Loren! Great perspective based on knowledge and experiences. SAIL or Cruising World could turn this into an article as well!
Too many words.... stuck at home.... still wake up at 6 am...... (sigh)
Thanks for your kind words! But there's no way those magazines will bite the advertising hand that feeds them.
 

kapnkd

kapnkd
One more observation...There’s only one set of headsail winches (primaries) which probably means the boat had not been raced other than maybe lightly.

While Ericson boats are built for racing, there’s less chances this one has been abused in the heat of battle. ;)
 

nquigley

Sustaining Member
She looks to be in excellent overall condition for her age - clearly has not has much exposure to the elements compared to most 80s boats: cockpit and companionway brightwork seems to be in very good condition and even in the dusty warehouse, you can see the gelcoat shines! Can you imagine how good she'd look down below if you just replace the salon flooring and the upholstery coverings?! The engine looks VERY clean - low hours?
But there are several things you'll obviously upgrade: all through-hulls for one thing - I see old-school 'taps' on some, and the old-style corrugated hoses.
Just based on those photos and the report from the broker about the owners' little use of the boat, it seems that $13K is a very good price! You'll easily spend $15-20K bringing it up to modern standards and making it cruising-ready, but you can do that over time.
 
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