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1987 E-38 Keel

Drewm3i

Member II
Hey guys!

We are in the midst of a refit and are going to launch sometime next week. Since we've been on the hard for six months, we've noticed some rusty water weeping out of our keel/hull joint. While I would love to pull/rebed the keel, the yard we are at doesn't generally do this type of work and advised against it as it's still snug against the hull with no signs of movement.

I would like to rebed before any serious sailing offshore, but we will be heading from Florida to Annapolis, MD in the coming months. We could do the ICE to be safe I suppose. At this point i am thinking about grinding out the joint to get a better look and to glass it over with a few layers of 24oz. cloth and epoxy.

We have not had the boat on the water yet, but the P.O. reported that no seawater entered the bilge.

I have done a lot of reading on the forum and know that my studs may be somewhat corroded. The washers for sure are, but unsure about the studs. There are also rusting bits from old bilge pumps and float switches. Here are some pictures:

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markvone

Sustaining Member
If you have rusty water weeping out of the joint it's time to drop and inspect and re-seal the keel joint. If you believe the PO, the seawater may have just reached the bolts from the outside but not found a path all the way to the bilge. I wouldn't be freaked out that the keel will fall off any time but I would plan on doing the drop as soon as practical so as to minimize the possible damage (if any) to the keel bolts due to crevice corrosion. By practical, I mean up to a few years. Your mast will have to be dropped before the boat is hauled and the keel dropped so I would plan any mast work in parallel. I would also research an experienced yard who has a track record doing the work. Then schedule as soon as it suits you to have the boat out of commission. Any other work to do at the same time?

The only real issue with the leaky joint is that you don't know if there is crevice corrosion of the keel bolts until you look at them. The rusty water leak just indicates a possibility. You may find the keel bolts are fine and you can re-seal and move on.

I wouldn't waste any time or energy grinding out the joint to investigate or re-fiberglass. You won't be sure if you fixed the leak, the fiberglass will trap existing seawater INSIDE the joint where it already is, the fiberglass won't keep the keel on and it will just get a another hairline crack at the joint from the flexing between lead keel and fiberglass hull stub. This year is the first year I've had a short hairline crack, since 2011. I used West G/Flex 655 epoxy per page 55 of the West (02-550) Fiberglass Boat Repair & Maintenance document (link below). The G/Flex has 30% elongation to deal with the flexing at the joint. I'll see how it works.

https://www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf

Mark
 

Drewm3i

Member II
Mark, thanks for your reply!

Unfortunately, we just had the mast down and redid the rigging, painted the mast, installed a radar, CPT autopilot, new wind instruments and more! The yard that we are at though doesn't drop keels. Walking around the yard is a horror show: by that I mean that ours is one of the best, despite the weeping of rust!

Any recommendations for a yard near Annapolis, MD? I don't mind taking the mast down again when we need to do our next bottom painting (2 yrs.; doing it now).
 

Drewm3i

Member II
Another thing, there is sealant on the nuts, which probably prevents outside water intrusion.

Also, my bilge water is very rusty (need to clean) from old engine fasteners, dissolved hose clamps, and those darned washers...the nuts and studs look good from above. The rusty water may be draining through unsealed holes that were once used to mount equipment.
 
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markvone

Sustaining Member
I usually look for a yard NOT in Annapolis to save money. However, in some cases and for some jobs you really do get what you pay for. I would research who has the best reputation for doing a keel drop. That yard will have a fixture to hold the keel when they lift the boat plus the experience. Also, you may find a marine services provider that is not a boat yard but is near one or can travel to different yards depending on the job. I called M Yacht services in Annapolis (next to Bert Jabins Yacht Yard) and talked to Marc when I was investigating another E36RH with a keel that was not vertical to the boat from a grounding. He gave me a ballpark estimate and told me what steps had to be done.

You may also find that a yard over in Oxford, St. Michaels or further south on the Bay may have the expertise and it will be worth the trip for the savings for an extensive haul out or over winter haul. I've used Bert Jabin's for a 3 week summer haul out where I did all the work myself. They are very good, a little more expensive on haul/block/launch but a LOT more expensive on daily/monthly storage rates because they are in a prime spot.

My keel bolt ends and nuts/washers get rusty from fresh rainwater if I don't keep the bilge dry and clean/polish the nuts. I'll bet money the sealant on the nuts is the PO trying to stop the leaking keel joint and his statement should have been "No water reaches the bilge now that I've gooped up the keel nuts with sealant, but for sure seawater has reached the keel bolts from the outside and I really should have addressed this issue properly as soon as I noticed it so that damage to the keel nuts is prevented."

You will need to explain "unsealed holes that were once used to mount equipment". I assume you mean rain water coming in through topside unsealed holes, not holes in the bilge. I would get all the rusty junk out of the bilge, remove the sealant and clean up everything until all the bilge water (leaking or rain) is clean and clear. Then you can see what's leaking and where. You may as well start tracking down EVERY leak you have, place where water puddles or is damp, make a list and investigate the path and source of each one. It will take some work to find them all but that moisture is causing damage and rot.

Mark
 

Drewm3i

Member II
There are indeed little screw holes in my bilge that are unsealed from small screws that once mounted other bilge pumps and float switches. I'm not sure if these go deep enough however to penetrate in the area beneath the hull where the keel mates.. There are no outside leaks that drain into the bilge, just rainwater from the mast.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Got it. The bottom of the keel stub of the hull (above the keel joint) is at least 2 inches thick so those little screw holes are not leaking.

Mark
 

Drewm3i

Member II
They are not deep holes so I guess it must be the washers? We have water in our bilge but the weep is so slow the level of water remains the same.

Here are some pictures after opening the joint up a bit today.

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Cory B

Sustaining Member
Having been through all this ourselves, it sounds like its definitely worth further investigation.

if water can weep out of the bilge, then it can also get in. And you are probably at risk for crevice corrosion on your keel bolts.

My primary concern with doing any heavy offshore sailing would be that the keel/hull joint could open up further and perhaps challenge your bilge pumps to keep up. It would take a lot of corrosion to risk losing the keel, but without actually dropping the keel to inspect its impossible to tell for certain - just looking from the outside or in the bilge doesn't tell the whole story.

Unexpected surprises when working on boats are not cheap, timely, nor fun.
 
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debonAir

Member III
That looks like a lot of rust color on the leading edge of the keel in one of those pictures? I don't think proper stainless nuts/bolts/washers could possibly rust enough to color that much of the keel. I am wondering if someone used steel filled epoxy to patch some dings or something. You can check with a magnet, it'll stick to steel filled epoxy putty (which is commonly sold at places like Autozone as "super strong epoxy").

You can test for small water leaks from inside to outside using fluorescent die (Autozone sells that too). Jest pour it and water in your clean bilge, wait a day, and shine a UV light on your keel. If you have a small leak going that way, it'll be leaking the other way once you splash.

If you haven't yet, and you're not going to drop the keel this season, you should think about a re-torque job on the keel nuts which should also be a good time to replace the corroded washers.
 

Drewm3i

Member II
After opening up the joint yesterday, so far there has been no more weeping of brown water. Odd...
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