35-3 replacing HBW-50 with Twindisc need model details

dustintodd

Member II
My 1989 35-3 has a Universal M25XP mated to a HBW-50 transmission (that has failed). From reading all threads about this topic on this I am going with Twindisc tranmission to replace it (because it's cheap and good). But tried to figure out the exact model has been a challenge. I need to know the type of bell housing (SAE-5 or BorgWarner) and the forward and reverse gear ratios. Anyone have that info? Thanks in advance and to all the other other folks that have posted about this here.
 

JSM

Member III
Have done a little research on this as my HBW-50 has acted up in the past. Give Beta Marine a call and talk to either Stanley or Farron. They can tell you everything you need to know and give you a very competitive quote on prices. I've been told that it's a good idea to replace the damper plate inside of the bell housing as well.

View attachment CONVERSION FROM ZF 5M (HURTH HBW 50) TO TMC 40.pdf[FONT=&amp]

BETA[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]MARINE [/FONT][FONT=&amp]US Ltd[/FONT][FONT=&amp].[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]11702 Hwy 306 South[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Minnesott Beach, NC 28510[/FONT]

www.betamarinenc.com

Tel: (877) 227 2473 (toll free)
Tel: (252) 249 2473
Fax: (252) 249 0049
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Damper plate = Torque plate

That "rattle" you hear at idle on 80's Universal diesels (many makes of boat) is the springs announcing their looseness in that hidden torque plate.
Mechanics have always told that anytime you go to the trouble to remove the trans from an OEM Universal diesel you should replace that plate While You Are In There.

While spring breakage is rare, I do know of a 70's 3 cylinder diesel (Pisces/Isuzu) that broke one while at idle and it stopped the engine in one (!) revolution. :0
I was part of the crew that lifted the engine out of the boat for repair, matter of fact.
 
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dustintodd

Member II
HBW50 replaced with Twindisc 40p

This document is gold. Thank you.
Have done a little research on this as my HBW-50 has acted up in the past. Give Beta Marine a call and talk to either Stanley or Farron. They can tell you everything you need to know and give you a very competitive quote on prices. I've been told that it's a good idea to replace the damper plate inside of the bell housing as well.

View attachment 25394[FONT=&amp]

BETA[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]MARINE [/FONT][FONT=&amp]US Ltd[/FONT][FONT=&amp].[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]11702 Hwy 306 South[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Minnesott Beach, NC 28510[/FONT]

www.betamarinenc.com

Tel: (877) 227 2473 (toll free)
Tel: (252) 249 2473
Fax: (252) 249 0049
 

JSM

Member III
Keep your old bell housing !

No mention of the bell housing mount type BorgWarner or SAE-5?

On page one it states that the mounting plate bolt pattern of both transmissions are the same. New trans will bolt onto your current bell housing. Looks like the main concern is making sure you have enough adjustment on your engine mounts to go up a bit and also for your drive shaft to scouch back.
 
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Bolo

Sustaining Member
My 1989 35-3 has a Universal M25XP mated to a HBW-50 transmission (that has failed). From reading all threads about this topic on this I am going with Twindisc tranmission to replace it (because it's cheap and good). But tried to figure out the exact model has been a challenge. I need to know the type of bell housing (SAE-5 or BorgWarner) and the forward and reverse gear ratios. Anyone have that info? Thanks in advance and to all the other other folks that have posted about this here.


Dustin: You're traveling the same road I was down this last spring. In fact, I've been down that road TWICE, first with a rebuild of my old HBW-50 (big mistake) and second with replacing it by installing a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission. I have a E32-3 (1987) with a M25XP. I didn't do the work myself but rather had the marina install the transmission for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here. The install did go OK with a few "bumps" along the way. Like I mentioned I did have a rebuild of the old HBW-50 and at that time a new damper plate was installed. The rebuild lasted about 15 months before the trans failed again for the same reasons. So when the 40P was installed I used the same damper plate, which was virtually new, and the yard also installed a 404A Drivesaver ($395) between the back end of the 40P transmission and the shaft plate. They did this for two reasons. First the bolt pattern didn't quite line up and if I got tangled up in say, a crab pot line which could stop the shaft from turning, then the Drivesaver would destroy itself and save the transmission and engine from a sudden stop under power. It also helps smooth out the ride a little bit. Well, worth the money, IMO. The ratio was 2:1 but not sure about reverse.

The other hitch was that after the 40P transmission was installed it was impossible to pull its transmission fluid dip stick out because the heat exchanger was in the way. The old HBW-50 had its dip stick more towards the side but still was always a problem for me gettin it out. the 40P has the stick on the top of the transmission. After considerable thought I designed a bracket which included modifying the original HX bracket to raise the HX up and to starboard giving me enough clearance to pull the stick. I also took the time to clean the HX inside and out. The engine also needs to be raised about 1/4" which the yard did at the engine mounts. Here is a link to my original posting about my transmission problem: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...blems-again-The-Saga-Continues&highlight=saga

You may have already read it but I suggest going back and reading the posting on the tail end where I document my solutions which included some photos. The 40P worked well this past season and even "felt" better then the original HBW-50. I found it on eBay (brand new) for $1,1980 from Sound Marine Diesel (www.SoundMarineDiesel.com) who were very helpful with install and operational info. You're going to also have to buy a new transmission cable bracket ($60, I think) because the shift arm is located on the port side as opposed to the HBW-50 which was to starboard. Good luck!
 

dustintodd

Member II
Do you have pictures of the bracket you designed to move the HX out of the way? Also according to North Atlantic Power Products, they have 2 different models depending on the bell housing mounting type BorgWarner or SAE-5. Still haven't figured out which I need for M25XP bell housing.

Dustin: You're traveling the same road I was down this last spring. In fact, I've been down that road TWICE, first with a rebuild of my old HBW-50 (big mistake) and second with replacing it by installing a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission. I have a E32-3 (1987) with a M25XP. I didn't do the work myself but rather had the marina install the transmission for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here. The install did go OK with a few "bumps" along the way. Like I mentioned I did have a rebuild of the old HBW-50 and at that time a new damper plate was installed. The rebuild lasted about 15 months before the trans failed again for the same reasons. So when the 40P was installed I used the same damper plate, which was virtually new, and the yard also installed a 404A Drivesaver ($395) between the back end of the 40P transmission and the shaft plate. They did this for two reasons. First the bolt pattern didn't quite line up and if I got tangled up in say, a crab pot line which could stop the shaft from turning, then the Drivesaver would destroy itself and save the transmission and engine from a sudden stop under power. It also helps smooth out the ride a little bit. Well, worth the money, IMO. The ratio was 2:1 but not sure about reverse.

The other hitch was that after the 40P transmission was installed it was impossible to pull its transmission fluid dip stick out because the heat exchanger was in the way. The old HBW-50 had its dip stick more towards the side but still was always a problem for me gettin it out. the 40P has the stick on the top of the transmission. After considerable thought I designed a bracket which included modifying the original HX bracket to raise the HX up and to starboard giving me enough clearance to pull the stick. I also took the time to clean the HX inside and out. The engine also needs to be raised about 1/4" which the yard did at the engine mounts. Here is a link to my original posting about my transmission problem: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...blems-again-The-Saga-Continues&highlight=saga

You may have already read it but I suggest going back and reading the posting on the tail end where I document my solutions which included some photos. The 40P worked well this past season and even "felt" better then the original HBW-50. I found it on eBay (brand new) for $1,1980 from Sound Marine Diesel (www.SoundMarineDiesel.com) who were very helpful with install and operational info. You're going to also have to buy a new transmission cable bracket ($60, I think) because the shift arm is located on the port side as opposed to the HBW-50 which was to starboard. Good luck!
 

dustintodd

Member II
Also what mfg/model drive safer is that?

Dustin: You're traveling the same road I was down this last spring. In fact, I've been down that road TWICE, first with a rebuild of my old HBW-50 (big mistake) and second with replacing it by installing a TECHNODRIVE Twin Disc TMC 40 P transmission. I have a E32-3 (1987) with a M25XP. I didn't do the work myself but rather had the marina install the transmission for a variety of reasons that I won't go into here. The install did go OK with a few "bumps" along the way. Like I mentioned I did have a rebuild of the old HBW-50 and at that time a new damper plate was installed. The rebuild lasted about 15 months before the trans failed again for the same reasons. So when the 40P was installed I used the same damper plate, which was virtually new, and the yard also installed a 404A Drivesaver ($395) between the back end of the 40P transmission and the shaft plate. They did this for two reasons. First the bolt pattern didn't quite line up and if I got tangled up in say, a crab pot line which could stop the shaft from turning, then the Drivesaver would destroy itself and save the transmission and engine from a sudden stop under power. It also helps smooth out the ride a little bit. Well, worth the money, IMO. The ratio was 2:1 but not sure about reverse.

The other hitch was that after the 40P transmission was installed it was impossible to pull its transmission fluid dip stick out because the heat exchanger was in the way. The old HBW-50 had its dip stick more towards the side but still was always a problem for me gettin it out. the 40P has the stick on the top of the transmission. After considerable thought I designed a bracket which included modifying the original HX bracket to raise the HX up and to starboard giving me enough clearance to pull the stick. I also took the time to clean the HX inside and out. The engine also needs to be raised about 1/4" which the yard did at the engine mounts. Here is a link to my original posting about my transmission problem: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...blems-again-The-Saga-Continues&highlight=saga

You may have already read it but I suggest going back and reading the posting on the tail end where I document my solutions which included some photos. The 40P worked well this past season and even "felt" better then the original HBW-50. I found it on eBay (brand new) for $1,1980 from Sound Marine Diesel (www.SoundMarineDiesel.com) who were very helpful with install and operational info. You're going to also have to buy a new transmission cable bracket ($60, I think) because the shift arm is located on the port side as opposed to the HBW-50 which was to starboard. Good luck!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Until this spring, I lived with the engineering limitations of the M25XP and it's lousy heat exchanger location. For over two decades. :rolleyes:

I used to unbolt the HE brackets and move it aside in order to access the dip stick/plug on the Hurth. Tricky, but do-able.
Others have moved the whole HE to another location and lengthened the hoses to fit. That might be "thinking outside the box" too far, but still worth considering.
IMHO, it was a poor design when Universal built their engine assembly using the earlier Kubota blocks.
(Beta solved the problem with a different manifold and HE on their Kubota engines and that makes routine servicing much easier.)

Our mechanic did build a new bracket for the cables for both the trans and throttle on our Beta installation with the transmission you are also using. The stock trans. bracket works for a cable approach from above, but there was no room to route the cable like that on our boat.
 

JSM

Member III
Do you have pictures of the bracket you designed to move the HX out of the way? Also according to North Atlantic Power Products, they have 2 different models depending on the bell housing mounting type BorgWarner or SAE-5. Still haven't figured out which I need for M25XP bell housing.

Dustin, If I'm not mistaken both the Hurth and the Twinddisc couple to a 4" Borg Warner shaft coupler (the coupler on the end of your prop shaft) and both have the same mounting plate bolt pattern for the bell housing.
Borg Warner 4" =drive shaft / rear of trans
SAE 5 = Bell Housing / front of trans
 

Bolo

Sustaining Member
Drivesaver

Also what mfg/model drive safer is that?

Like I noted in my posting it was model 404A with the part number being 01-12-0050. I didn't have a hand in selecting it. That was left to the marina that installed the transmission.
 

Bolo

Sustaining Member
Photos of the modified HX bracket

Do you have pictures of the bracket you designed to move the HX out of the way? Also according to North Atlantic Power Products, they have 2 different models depending on the bell housing mounting type BorgWarner or SAE-5. Still haven't figured out which I need for M25XP bell housing.

Here are photos from the earlier posting that I linked to.

fullsizeoutput_df.jpg
Here you can see just the modified bracket (without the heat exchanger) above the bell housing. I used a length of 2" square steel tubing with holes drilled through to accommodate long bolts that went through to the top of the engine. They would be bolts 1 and 3 from left to right in the photo. Bolts 2 and 4 (from left to right) are shorter and bolt the modified bracket to the top of the 2" square tube. The nuts can be reached by going through the tube openings at either end and this has to be bolted before you mount the whole thing to the engine. Also bolts 2 and 4 go through new holes that I drilled. The existing holes in this bracket were cut off because the flat part of the bracket was shortened. I had to do that because it was running into the hose behind the HX. It's the brown one in this image that was replaced with new hoses. So thats also what you'r going to need to buy, new hoses because the existing ones will be too short after you move the HX. Also they were 7/8" dia. hoses which you can't easily by off the shelf. I think I ordered them through Defender since the local West Marine didn't stock that size. Although there maybe other sources out there for them near you.

fullsizeoutput_eb.jpg
Here is the view from above the engine looking back at the HX mounted to the bracket. There are more images on the other posted I linked to also. BTW, why did I offset the HX to starboard? Because when I raised it the HX ran into the exhaust elbow to port. I think I moved it about 3" off to starboard to clear the elbow but I'd suggest, if you want to do this modification, to get the parts together and "dry fit" them to see how things work out on your engine. But you'll need to install the transmission first. It's never easy, is it?
 
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toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
The heat exchanger isn't one of those engine parts that needs to fit precisely in a particular location. Not this model of engine, but I moved the HX clear out of the engine compartment, to a location next to the domestic water heater. Hoses ran that way anyhow. (Really, only the other side of the bulkhead.) This eliminated the need for a header tank and allowed the original low-profile engine cover configuration, which on my boat, gave me back my nice double quarter berth. Probably the only danger is that it may not get checked often enough. (Holy cow, when did the cap rust out again?)
 

Bolo

Sustaining Member
Zinc check

Toddster, I was going to move the HX off the engine too at first but decided to keep it basically in the same area so that I could check the end caps and easily reach the zinc which I replace every year.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Welcome to the "engine room"

Toddster, I was going to move the HX off the engine too at first but decided to keep it basically in the same area so that I could check the end caps and easily reach the zinc which I replace every year.

Having grubbed around in the close spaces of our boat for over a couple of decades, I view the whole thing as a sort of Jenga Puzzle. The designer lays out the location of major weights and shape, the shop then makes notes about the order of ''build", and the foreman and the crew then move stuff as needed to make it all fit in some order of attachment.

Thirty years later the fourth (or 8th) owner is left to ponder why some parts are difficult and frustrating to service or change out. :0

While we blame yard workers for taking "too long" to perform some tasks, often they do earn their money trying to work in areas that were not designed for humans or tools or... humans trying to use tools. (Sigh.)

For some perspective, try working on the innards of a vintage Hu__er sometime. I have done this and found a totally appalling lack of access to work on Anything after it left the assembly line. EY was not perfect, but was noticeably better in that regard.
 
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