35-3 Shower issue, Polybutlyn plumbing

[nukey99]

We are potentially purchasing a 1983 35Mk3. One of the items we called out for fixing prior to sale was significant leaking in the shower. We came to an agreement on price, and I said I would look at the shower. We have options to walk from the deal, this post isn't about price and all that stuff, it is about technology and thoughts.
I replaced the shower mixing cartridge which wasn't horrible, but we still have leaking. I then proceeded to spend 12 hours taking things apart working through the 12 inch circle where the shower valve is located. Not my boat, so, I don't cut access panels etc. I did find the following, a boat load of pipe tape on fittings which have round gaskets, which I think is not correct, and after a lot of effort, I found a fitting which was leaking from a small crack which I suspect is either freeze damage or decay of Polybutylene plumbing fixtures. The freshwater systems are clearly polybutylene piping which is a failed household piping product used in the 80's and 90's and has a history of significant class action lawsuits due to failure. It is clear to my eyes that "quick/easy" fixes were attempted and failed.

Here is where we get into solution/technology type questions. The first challenge to solve is the horrible access to the shower plumbing.

Would members consider an acceptable solution to cut an access panel to make getting into the shower plumbing manageable?

Would members consider using PB to PEX adapters at the joints to finish plumbing etc to be acceptable?

Do members have a sense of what it would cost to redo the fresh water plumbing to current ABYC standards?

There is a lot we like about the boat, we've owned boats for 29 years, including 34 foot keel boats, and a 48 foot express cruiser. I know my way around boats and all the headaches etc.

Any thoughts our guidance would be much appreciated!

 

[Nick J]

I've replaced about 90% of my fresh water system. It's not technically hard or expensive if you do the work yourself, but it's labor intensive. There are three areas where you're going to have a difficult time: around the water tank, between the engine compartment and main bilge, and around the holding tank. I removed the water tank to get access to the first area. Cut an access hatch into my cabin sole for the second, and ended up reusing the polybutylene hose for the third section. I replaced the holding tank and waste plumbing a few yes prior to doing this, so I didn't want to remove all that work to complete the run to the head.

Its important to know the problem with the polybutylene hose isn't the actual hose, it's the Fittings. You can purchase adapters to transition from polybutylene to pex which would make the project much easier.


Mixing valve

New Shower Mixing Valve

I ran some wires a few years ago between the nav station and my water tanks to install tank monitors. Most of the run was relatively simple, but the section behind the shower required pulling the shower mixing valve. It sits in a 4-5" hole that's covered up by the valve trim kit and, as far as I...

ericsonyachts.org

Sink

35-3 New Sink

We're firmly in the putting-things-back-together stage of our work this winter and with that comes installing a new sink. This one was high on my wife's list. The old sink wasn't too bad, but it was small and somewhat flimsy. We found the new one on Amazon: Sink...

ericsonyachts.org

Main system (post 112)

Engine Compartment Clean up

This work has pushed into the holiday season which is making it much more difficult to find the time to get it all done. On top of my limited time, the yard has been hit with the flu, so they've been limited as well. We got the last piece of insulation in: Finished the Oil filter install...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Nick J]

Here's another one about the cabin sile access hatch

Plumbing access

While I’m updating my plumbing, I’ve been thinking about ways to improve access to key locations. The first was the inaccessible bilge compartment just in front of the engine. The bilge pump hoses and fresh water lines to the head transition from the starboard side of the bilge to the port side...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[peaman]

Would members consider using PB to PEX adapters at the joints to finish plumbing etc to be acceptable?

I recently did two plumbing projects using SharkBite push-to-connect fittings to join 3/8" PB to PEX with no issues at all. One was a water heater replacement where I had a bunch of joints with no leaks (not in the plastic piping joints anyway). The other project was a connection in the cabinet in the head where access was so limited, the connection was made by feel only. The SharkBite fittings for 3/8" tubing are only available in brass, but I have seen similar technology in other brands with plastic fittings, but only in 1/2" and larger.

 

[Prairie Schooner]

You've pretty much got gold standard references with those two. We haven't tackled Qest on our boat yet. A few more references which might be helpful:

Qest tubing (drinking water system)

I am in the process of replacing most of the fresh (potable) water system in my 1988 Olson 34. This is the gray flexible tubing that Ericson used, along with thousands of homebuilders and RV manufacturers in the 80's. I had a persistant drip near the pressure pump. A local RV parts distributor...

ericsonyachts.org

more images of Nick's potable water work along with the bilge hose:

Bilge Hose Replacement Battle

We installed the two vane pumps yesterday. The diaphragm's on my Jabsco bilge pumps seem to last 20 years or more. What is the life expectancy for the vanes in your model? I change out the impeller in the raw water pump on our engine at least every other year, but I do not know how long it...

ericsonyachts.org

Where did you first detect the leak? As you say, everything is buried behind that shower panel.

We've had our 35-3 for three full seasons now and like it a lot. Good luck sorting things out.

 

[Christian Williams]

In my opinion Qest is swell, and compatible, as said above. Fixing the leaky fittings is jiu jitsu in a thimble, but you knew that.

Access ports? I'm all in favor. Ericson used them and they look fine to my eye.

 

[Loren Beach]

Access ports? I'm all in favor. Ericson used them and they look fine to my eye.

Same opinion here. Some time ago I installed a 10" screw-out plastic plate on the face of the head counter to enable (improved) access to the mess of plumbing inside.

 

[nukey99]

You've pretty much got gold standard references with those two. We haven't tackled Qest on our boat yet. A few more references which might be helpful:

Qest tubing (drinking water system)

I am in the process of replacing most of the fresh (potable) water system in my 1988 Olson 34. This is the gray flexible tubing that Ericson used, along with thousands of homebuilders and RV manufacturers in the 80's. I had a persistant drip near the pressure pump. A local RV parts distributor...

ericsonyachts.org

more images of Nick's potable water work along with the bilge hose:

Bilge Hose Replacement Battle

We installed the two vane pumps yesterday. The diaphragm's on my Jabsco bilge pumps seem to last 20 years or more. What is the life expectancy for the vanes in your model? I change out the impeller in the raw water pump on our engine at least every other year, but I do not know how long it...

ericsonyachts.org

Where did you first detect the leak? As you say, everything is buried behind that shower panel.

We've had our 35-3 for three full seasons now and like it a lot. Good luck sorting things out.

I found the leak when I pulled the plate off of the shower mixer to replace it. I put in the new valves and still had water coming out. So, I did more disassembly and found a fitting with a hairline crack spraying water. A lot more work and I had the fitting out, and took it to 3 different hardware stores and couldn't find a match. Since it is not yet our boat, I then had to reassemble everything. Getting that pipe reattached the fitting while working through a small hose was an hours long ordeal. I told the broker they needed to address it, and they have agreed. I did some quick research today, and think it shouldn't be that bad for them. 2 shark bite PB to Pex adapters. A few feet of Pex tubing. Cut in the access panel. Maybe 3 hours of work overall.

 

[RonB.]

My solution is somewhat drastic, perhaps. Shower was never used in 3 years of ownership. But, we mostly do club racing and short cruises. Leaking shower and smelly holding tank… so I gutted the head and removed all the toilet stuff. Put in an airhead, now facing aft where the shower was and a really useful vanity along the hull side. No smell, no leaks… nice roomy head! I’ll plumb in a shower in the cockpit. But, this is now a simple and clean head without any of the usual problems.
RonB. 35/3

 

[Nick J]

Here's the exact fitting I used to transition from pex to PB:

Flair-It 1/2 in. PEX X 3/8 in. D PEX PVC Reducing Coupling Mfr# 16853 - Ace Hardware

Flair-It fittings are constructed of durable Polyoxymethylene (POM) and are compatible with PEX and PB. The patented design consists of a nut and flared insert and requires no tools. The fittings push against the ID and OD of the pipe, creating a strong long-term seal. Flair-It fittings are...

www.acehardware.com

They work well and haven't leaked. More about the fitting in this thread (see post 27)

Bilge Hose Replacement Battle

On our boat there were several places where the factory had zip-tied wiring bundles and some of the hose sections. It was challenging to work around those when time to run new hoses, etc. I did find that I could reach way under bunk tops with some side cutters and free the hoses, but it took...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[nukey99]

Here's the exact fitting I used to transition from pex to PB:

Flair-It 1/2 in. PEX X 3/8 in. D PEX PVC Reducing Coupling Mfr# 16853 - Ace Hardware

Flair-It fittings are constructed of durable Polyoxymethylene (POM) and are compatible with PEX and PB. The patented design consists of a nut and flared insert and requires no tools. The fittings push against the ID and OD of the pipe, creating a strong long-term seal. Flair-It fittings are...

www.acehardware.com

They work week and haven't leaked. More about the fitting in this thread (see post 27)

Bilge Hose Replacement Battle

On our boat there were several places where the factory had zip-tied wiring bundles and some of the hose sections. It was challenging to work around those when time to run new hoses, etc. I did find that I could reach way under bunk tops with some side cutters and free the hoses, but it took...

ericsonyachts.org

If and as I move forward, I will look at SharkBite PB to PEX conversion fittings with the push to connect feature. They are approved to be used inside of closed walls and I have yet to have one fail. I would cut the PB at the appropriate point and attache the new PEX at that spot and plumb forward. The big issue is access. I have not seen a method to do access with out surgery on the boat. The owner is committed to "fixing it' and getting the deal done. I don't think he understands how big a deal it might be. Solutions I see are, mount an access plate where the shower lines comes out, drilling the appropriate sized hole, or disassemble the entire cabinetry to gain access. When I was in there trying to fix the mixing valve, I saw lots of attempts to bandaid around the problem. I shot video of the cracked fitting spraying water and sent it to the broker. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

[Christian Williams]

I'd ask for a few hundred dollars off and do it myself. No telling what a seller's forced fix would look like. You sound plenty handy.

 

[nukey99]

I'd ask for a few hundred dollars off and do it myself. No telling what a seller's forced fix would look like. You sound plenty handy.

I am pretty handy, but a bit short on tools. After my first examination and attempt to correct, my hands looked like I was trying to pet a bobcat reaching in through the shower mixing valve cover plate. A sellers forced fix will have to be done under my observation and approval. Here's a thought and I would appreciate feedback. I add up the parts required to do an correct fix, and then guesstimate my time and charge a rate that is worth while for me, (75/hour), and provide the seller with a revised offer?? My guess, with out doing the math on it, is it will be around 750+. I also guess a boat shop would go well above that mark.

Your input is always appreciated. My wife and I watch your video's all the time and she is listening to your audio book.

 

[Loren Beach]

After my first examination and attempt to correct, my hands looked like I was trying to pet a bobcat

Over the years, I have developed a habit of smoothing (file, sand paper, Dremel) any and all openings I have had to work thru and into. That way only the first time is hazardous. As you work your way in around plumbing or wiring, have some 80 grit and a round file or rasp near at hand. I have helped with similar work on a cheaper boat from a builder that was much more crude in their installations, and EY did a much better job. That said, much of the assembly was mean't to get the boat thru its first decade. And here we all are, three decades + later.

It could be worse -- you could have taken up Golf!

Edit: View Bob Skalkowski's new video over at the Raftup Forum today. Inspirational !

 

[Nick J]

This wasn't an easy install, but one thing that made it more tolerable was connecting everything to the valve body outside the cabinet. Once everything was connected, I fed the PEX tails back through the hole and mounted it. The final connection was below the sink which had much better access. If I had to do it over again, I would cut a large rectangular hole where the valve is, attach the valve to a piece of Starboard that would cover the larger hole. That would provide excellent access in the future. Either way, it's also a good idea to put a couple conduits from the v birth to the cabinet above the head while the valve is out.

 

[bigd14]

my hands looked like I was trying to pet a bobcat reaching in through the shower mixing valve cover plate

All work on a boat requires a small blood sacrifice. Part of the deal!

 

[nukey99]

This wasn't an easy install, but one thing that made it more tolerable was connecting everything to the valve body outside the cabinet. Once everything was connected, I fed the PEX tails back through the hole and mounted it. The final connection was below the sink which had much better access. If I had to do it over again, I would cut a large rectangular hole where the valve is, attach the valve to a piece of Starboard that would cover the larger hole. That would provide excellent access in the future. Either way, it's also a good idea to put a couple conduits from the v birth to the cabinet above the head while the valve is out.

Nick - Do you have any photo's of your final installation which you might share? I want to see what the boat looks like post surgery. Thanks

 

[Nick J]

Here's the final shower Install. Let me know if you want to see anything else. If I don't have a picture on hand, I'm at the boat a few times per week and and get whatever you need.

 

[nukey99]

That looks very nice, but also looks very much our potential boat looks. How do you open it to improve access? I am finding this forum to be wealth of information and appreciate all the support and help.

 

[Nick J]

I was thinking of cutting a large opening in the back panel, then installing the mixing valve on a piece of Starboard that would cover the opening. Something like this:

another option is installing an inspection hatch on the bulkhead in the v birth. This would help, but it would still be difficult to work on the plumbing.