• Untitled Document

    Join us on March 29rd, 7pm EST

    for the CBEC Virtual Meeting

    All EYO members and followers are welcome to join the fun and get to know the guest speaker!

    See the link below for login credentials and join us!

    March Meeting Info

    (dismiss this notice by hitting 'X', upper right)

'87 E34 with Hurth trans.

hdlEric

Member III
This is still another post re my woes with my good ole Hurth tranny. My Hurth appatently got some water in it, when my boat partially sank at the dock last fall. It does not like to come out of FWD, and the fluid is milky in nature. I have decided to remove it and have it replaced or rebuilt.
Any thoughts as to which course is better??? Also, what size ZF (the new owner of Hurth) I should get????

It also seems to me, I need to remove the engine from its mounts to get the bell housing... then the tranny removed:0. It looks as though the rear engine mounts are part of the bell housing:mad::mad:. Any body have any experience with this???? :confused::confused:
Thanks!!!!!
 

hodo

Member III
Hurth

Which engine do you have? This would be a good time to check out the drive plate for loose or broken springs.
Harold
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Some years ago I replaced all of our motor mounts when I found that one of the original '88 OEM mounts was collapsed, to metal on metal -- one of the rear ones.
The rubber compound in these things as a finite "life". Many owners do not think about preventative maint. for these flexible parts, but they need to be done the "20 to 25 year" list.

As for the springs in the torque plate, if one actually breaks, the pieces often turn sideways and this jams and stops rotation in one revolution. :0
This happened to a friend of mine with a 70's era diesel engine. Dramatic (!) but he only lost power and nothing else broke -- quite a task to pull his engine to replace that plate. He is lucky in that the boat was headed into a slip at idle, and he was able to drift in to a dock and tie up.

IMHO if you have any doubts about your Hurth at all, do not wait for your annual ATF replacement and do it now. Perhaps a couple of fluid changes just to be sure. Only about 10 oz of AFT, and some swearing at the difficulty of accessing the drain plug. I sure hope you do not need a ZF10 replacement, as all the info I have seen shows that it's slightly longer and depending on boat model may result in a shortened shaft or relocating the mounts forward.

Aside: I know that if a major part of our drive train, like this one, dies... I will change to a Betamarine engine setup. I dislike throwing new dollars into old parts.

Best of luck and keep us informed.
Loren
 
Last edited:

JSM

Member III
I also have an 87 E34 with a universal m25xp and recently changed the motor mounts. On the M25xp the motor mounts are definitely not part of the bell housing. Changing them out was relatively easy. See this link for a tutorial on an E34.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/motor_mounts
If you have not done so already change the fluid in the trans as many times as it takes to get the water out and get it back to a nice red color.
 

hdlEric

Member III
1987 M25X and Hurth transmission

Some years ago I replaced all of our motor mounts when I found that one of the original '88 OEM mounts was collapsed, to metal on metal -- one of the rear ones.
The rubber compound in these things as a finite "life". Many owners do not think about preventative maint. for these flexible parts, but they need to be one the "20 to 25 year" list.

As for the springs in the torque plate, if one actually breaks, the pieces often turn sideways and this jams and stops rotation in one revolution. :0
This happened to a friend of mine with a 70's era diesel engine. Dramatic (!) but he only lost power and noting else broke -- quite a task to pull his engine to replace that plate. He is lucky in that the boat was headed into a slip at idle, and he was able to drift in to a dock and tie up.

IMHO if you have any doubts about your Hurth at all, do not wait for your annual ATF replacement and do it now. Perhaps a couple of fluid changes just to be sure. Only about 10 oz of AFT, and some swearing at the difficulty of accessing the drain plug. I sure hope you do not need a ZF10 replacement, as all the info I have seen shows that it's slightly longer and depending on boat model may result in a shortened shaft or relocating the mounts forward.

Aside: I know that if a major part of our drive train, like this one, dies... I will change to a Betamarine engine setup. I dislike throwing new dollars into old parts.

Best of luck and keep us informed.
Loren

HI folks, Thanks for the input and patience!!!! I am embarrassed to say I am STILL NOT 100% sure if my engine is an M-25x, or xp, but I am certain it does have the Hurth(Munchen) HBW-50; 'cause there is no cooler attached, and any of the transmissions above the 50 do have them.
As far as I can tell, there is an "adapter flange" which is available to attach the unit to the engine. This is based upon the Hurth installation manual, and my observations of my setup. I have attached a pic of it from ebay; just happened to run across it; hope it comes through ok!! This "adapter flange" is where the holes are for the rear engine mounts.........hence my feeling that I have to move the engine forward and raise it up; before I can remove the "adapter flange", and the tranny. Does this make any sense to anybody????????:confused::confused: I will replace the Dampener also; some places won't even warranty a unit unless you buy the dampener also.
attachment.php
 

Attachments

  • ZF HURTH ADAPTER.jpg
    ZF HURTH ADAPTER.jpg
    232.1 KB · Views: 733

supersailor

Contributing Partner
The '87 e-34's came with the Universal M-25Xp (23hp) unless the owner requested a different engine (Yanmar, Volvo, etc.). The transmission shown in the pics is an incorrect transmission. There is no V-drive. I am going to be adding a vibration damper and shaft seal when I get over Terra Nova's current problems. That will include new engine mounts. If you touch the engine at all replace them. The mounts are not attached to the bell housing and, rather, about 1/2 way back on the engine with the front mount in the middle of the front of the engine just under the engine pulley. The bell housing bolts are all accessible. I believe the tranny can be pulled through the hatch over the shaft log but it would be a knuckle buster. I would rather move the engine. If you do this in the water, make sure you secure the shaft. Otherwise you might be joining Terra Nova in water damage remediation. No fun, I guarantee. A Transmission rebuild is also an option.

Good luck.
 

hdlEric

Member III
pics of trans adapter and M-25xp

Bob, Thanks for the info, but two things I need to point out. The transmission adapter I was referring to is in the middle pic; it is the copper colored piece; it is the "ZF Hurth marine adapter housing 63 transmission".
The trans in the pic above it I know is not the correct one for my boat. I have the Hurth(Munchen) HBW-50. I am quite sure of the model; because it does not have a cooler, and the 100's and larger did.
In the (middle)pic of the trans adapter you can see one of the two flanges with holes in them; that is where the rear engine mounts attach, and the adapter then is bolted to the engine. I am not sure I need this piece, but when I started looking at a Hurth maunal about the trans, it did show such a piece to be used when needed. Also, my engine has four engine mounts; two in front and two aft. I double checked this on a Universal manual page.......'cause I thought I was nuts, but there are indeed 4; not 3 on my boat.
Howard
 

hdlEric

Member III
thanks

I also have an 87 E34 with a universal m25xp and recently changed the motor mounts. On the M25xp the motor mounts are definitely not part of the bell housing. Changing them out was relatively easy. See this link for a tutorial on an E34.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/motor_mounts
If you have not done so already change the fluid in the trans as many times as it takes to get the water out and get it back to a nice red color.

JSM, thanks for the info; the Compass Marine site has many great "how to" tutorials!! Howard
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Bob, Thanks for the info, but two things I need to point out. The transmission adapter I was referring to is in the middle pic; it is the copper colored piece; it is the "ZF Hurth marine adapter housing 63 transmission".
The trans in the pic above it I know is not the correct one for my boat. I have the Hurth(Munchen) HBW-50. I am quite sure of the model; because it does not have a cooler, and the 100's and larger did.
In the (middle)pic of the trans adapter you can see one of the two flanges with holes in them; that is where the rear engine mounts attach, and the adapter then is bolted to the engine. I am not sure I need this piece, but when I started looking at a Hurth maunal about the trans, it did show such a piece to be used when needed. Also, my engine has four engine mounts; two in front and two aft. I double checked this on a Universal manual page.......'cause I thought I was nuts, but there are indeed 4; not 3 on my boat.
Howard

Interesting about the mounts. Our O-34 uses four mounts, but the 80's Ericson's I have seen in your size range have a single one on the front of their engines.
Maybe I missed it, but did you say that you do have the factory engine service and parts manuals?

Modified post: I linked to a picture of the front of our engine, and perhaps you can confirm if you have two front mounts like our engine?

Loren
 

Attachments

  • newbatt.jpg
    newbatt.jpg
    45.9 KB · Views: 347
Last edited:

hdlEric

Member III
number of engine mounts on my M-25XP

Loren,
I will check again when I get out to the boat in the next couple days........perhaps I am nuts......also attached is the diagram of the flange I cited in earlier posts........which I feel is attached to the engine, with bolts I cannot see; due to the orientation of the engine.
attachment.php
. Does this look familiar??
 

Attachments

  • HurthMountingFlange.png
    HurthMountingFlange.png
    332 KB · Views: 702

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
I'm a little late to the party (been out of the country sailing:rolleyes:).

When our transmission HBW50 leaked all fluid, it was rebuilt by a local Yanmar/Universal shop (in spite of me asking them that if the cost exceeded $800, not to proceed). They did and charged me over $2k for the job. One month later, the fluid leaked out again (bad seal) and the shop replaced it with a brand new ZF10, no charge.

Ours is a Universal M25XP. The motor mounts replaced at that time as well.

We replaced the dampener too.
Rick
 

hdlEric

Member III
1987 E 34 with M25XP and Hurth transmission

Rick, Thanks for the info!! How many engine mounts do you have, and was there any trouble getting the ZF10 to fit? Where did you get the motor mounts from? I plan on replacing the dampener also.......it's been recommended by almost everyone. thanks again.
Howard
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Rick, Thanks for the info!! How many engine mounts do you have, and was there any trouble getting the ZF10 to fit? Where did you get the motor mounts from? I plan on replacing the dampener also.......it's been recommended by almost everyone. thanks again.
Howard

No worries Howard.

The ZF10 is a direct replacement for the clunky old Hurth. We have three engine mounts, they came from the shop that did the work.

You can do it and you will have the piece of mind that comes from confidence in your power train to get you home in bad conditions.
 

hdlEric

Member III
1987 E 34 with M25XP and Hurth transmission

Rick, Thanks again for the info, and the encouragement!! The ZF 10 has been performing well? How long have you had it in? I have heard all sorts of opinions on rebuilding vs getting a ZF model; it's kinda hard to come away with a comfortable feeling about doing either, but thanks again.
Howard
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Rick, Thanks again for the info, and the encouragement!! The ZF 10 has been performing well? How long have you had it in? I have heard all sorts of opinions on rebuilding vs getting a ZF model; it's kinda hard to come away with a comfortable feeling about doing either, but thanks again.
Howard

With the cost of a new one being around $1000 they are essentially disposable and not worth rebuilding ( you can search here and read my rebuild-the-transmission experience).

With the time and expense of pulling the engine, why not plan on doing it just once?

The new transmission has performed flawlessly.

A vital part of my daily pre-check includes checking the oil, trans fluid and coolant levels.
 

hdlEric

Member III
1987 E 34 with M25XP and Hurth transmission

Some years ago I replaced all of our motor mounts when I found that one of the original '88 OEM mounts was collapsed, to metal on metal -- one of the rear ones.
The rubber compound in these things as a finite "life". Many owners do not think about preventative maint. for these flexible parts, but they need to be done the "20 to 25 year" list.

As for the springs in the torque plate, if one actually breaks, the pieces often turn sideways and this jams and stops rotation in one revolution. :0
This happened to a friend of mine with a 70's era diesel engine. Dramatic (!) but he only lost power and nothing else broke -- quite a task to pull his engine to replace that plate. He is lucky in that the boat was headed into a slip at idle, and he was able to drift in to a dock and tie up.

IMHO if you have any doubts about your Hurth at all, do not wait for your annual ATF replacement and do it now. Perhaps a couple of fluid changes just to be sure. Only about 10 oz of AFT, and some swearing at the difficulty of accessing the drain plug. I sure hope you do not need a ZF10 replacement, as all the info I have seen shows that it's slightly longer and depending on boat model may result in a shortened shaft or relocating the mounts forward.

Aside: I know that if a major part of our drive train, like this one, dies... I will change to a Betamarine engine setup. I dislike throwing new dollars into old parts.

Best of luck and keep us informed.
Loren

Loren, In doing research about my problem, with my Hurth HBW 50 trans, I have run across the gamut of opinions re having mine re-built vs buying a ZF replacement. It's enough to make a person crazy :0!! Many people have reported problems with the re-built Hurth units, but others say the ZF units are junk also. You mentioned the Betamarine setup; what is that? That sounds like a lot of money to spend, which I don't have. In your experiences with folks on this forum and elsewhere, what is the lesser of two evils; rebuilding or buying a ZF trans?
thanks again for your info and patience, Howard
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The costs of "yachting" !!

Loren, In doing research about my problem, with my Hurth HBW 50 trans, I have run across the gamut of opinions re having mine re-built vs buying a ZF replacement. It's enough to make a person crazy :0!! Many people have reported problems with the re-built Hurth units, but others say the ZF units are junk also. You mentioned the Betamarine setup; what is that? That sounds like a lot of money to spend, which I don't have. In your experiences with folks on this forum and elsewhere, what is the lesser of two evils; rebuilding or buying a ZF trans?
thanks again for your info and patience, Howard

The Betamarine drive train replacements are popular in my area. Some friends even put a new one into their E-32-3, and it is working great.
http://www.betamarinenc.com/index.php/engines
That model 25 would look mighty fine in our boat if we keep it long enough, BTW.
:)

My comment was reflective of my desire to avoid throwing $$ into 30-year-old assemblies instead of throwing (let's avoid the word "investing" !) $$ into new current-technology parts with a warranty.

Yeah, it's always going to be about the dollars, and we all have different budgets for this recreational stuff. Gotta say, that ever since I found out that it costs about $30K to join the golf club up the way from our little yacht club (plus hefty usage costs to even play the game) I feel much better about owning and maintaining a so-called "yacht"...
:0

Cheers,
Loren
 
Last edited:

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
Howard,

My boat has the M-25 engine with 3 motor mounts. I changed to a ZF-10 in the water. It was not easy, to say the least, but it can be done. It requires extensive realignment of the engine because the trans is 1" longer than the HBW50 and that difference changes the angles.
 

hdlEric

Member III
M25xp

Interesting about the mounts. Our O-34 uses four mounts, but the 80's Ericson's I have seen in your size range have a single one on the front of their engines.
Maybe I missed it, but did you say that you do have the factory engine service and parts manuals?

Modified post: I linked to a picture of the front of our engine, and perhaps you can confirm if you have two front mounts like our engine?

Loren

Loren, You were right about the engine mounts........sorry for doubting you! There are only 3 on my '87 E34; two in the back and one in the middle up front. Do you have any idea how to get a hold of a service manual for the engine, which will guide me in how to remove the trans from engine??? Westerbeke has a manual, but it deals with the internal parts of the engine. Also, even though I was wrong about the motor mounts, it really looks to me the back mounts on mine are part of the engine that I need to remove get the trans off. I am about to move the engine forward, so I can get a clearer picture, but I just don't see how I can get the trans off without removing that part of the (back) of the engine. Thanks again for your time and patience. Howard
 
Top