A-4 replacement no longer hypothetical

[Scott Abbott]

This past Fall I left Deltaville, VA on the Chesapeake Bay to head back to my home marina 15 miles away. It was up river against outgoing current and wind directly in my face. Sails down, I motored for better part of a day back. Last week while winterizing I noticed oil in the bilge. Damn. It was Sunday afternoon and I had to head back to reality. I had 'Ken' my trusted marina mechanic check the A-4 out for me on Monday (he had converted it to electronic ignition for me several months ago). Report is: evidence of oil leaking from the rear engine seal and the water pump shaft seal. There is evidence of a fuel leak from the carburetor. Cost to pull engine, repair, and reinstall hovering at $2K. Problem is, I will have a band-aid engine that really needs to be rebuilt. So, decision time...

Option #1: to get a rebuilt replacement A-4 from Moyer (rebuilt: $4,840 and new block option $6.440). install labor either way $1,200 estimated. Net all-in: $6400 to $8000. Hell... maybe even the exhaust too. Make that $10K.

Option #2: find an oldie but goodie A-4 from a fellow sympathetic sailor that I can swap out. estimated cost with shipping etc and install: $3000

Option #3: put the $2K into the existing. I have had the compression test done and I have acceptable compression in all cylinders. But with an old block and 30 years of salt water living... I am waiting to see the temperature gauge to start to head over the 190 degree mark.

Option #4: go diesel... which would be awesome. However, I am being estimated $15K. Yeah right. No chance.

What to do? I have a 9.9 Yamaha mounted to the transom as a backup motor. That thing really isn't an option in chop... just gets me back in an emergency. Now it is my only motor. At least I have some time to figure this out.

 

[Loren Beach]

I guess that inflation has really pushed up engine prices. Last year or so I recall pricing a three cylinder Beta at about 8K or so, and that's more engine than you need.
I just looked at a dealer price on the web for a Beta 20, for $8K.

I note that the Beta 16 is now listed at 7.5K, and the dealer asks interested persons to call and negotiate.
http://betamarinewest.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2

OTOH, Yard prices for the whole conversion would certainly up the total a lot, but most of us would likely do a lot of the work ourselves.
If we all had to hire out all the work on our boats, very few of us could afford to own any boat. :0

Anyhow, best of luck.

Loren

 

[Cory B]

Rebuild yourself?

On our old boat, we removed the A4 from the boat, took it home, and rebuilt it ourselves. They are pretty easy to rebuild, and any replacement parts needed are available via Moyer. Moyer also has an excellent "How To" guide that walks you through everything. Its been a while, but for us replacement parts and having a local machine shop (cleaning, milling, and pressing in/out a few difficult parts) do their thing was about $900 total, including a couple of new tools (large torque wrench, long crow bar, etc.). No expensive special tools were required.

After rebuilding it we had very high confidence in the engine and it worked great for us.

Our block was in overall decent shape and good candidate for a rebuild. It was raw water cooled, but spent much of its life on the "freshwater" Columbia River. It sounds like your block may not be as a good candidate for rebuild, but if you have to take it out anyway it might be worth it to give it a second look.

For us, sinking the money into a diesel for that boat would not have given a good return (as if anything on a boat could). And I am glad we didn't as we ended up selling the boat a few years later.

 

[steven]

I faced same decision last couple of seasons. Each time I analyze, it seems more cost effective to keep the old one running - as long as compression is good. So far it has really been my auxiliary systems that have been the real problems - muffler, fuel system, water intake, carb, . . . No loss replacing these systems - will use them anyway for an A-4 replacement. I'm looking around for an old but basically sound A-4 before I "need" it. Plan to rebuild (sounds like fun) so I have a spare.

 

[tenders]

Another alternative:
1 - replace the water pump with Moyer's bearing pump and stop dealing with the seals: $250. Or, replace the shaft and seals of your existing pump: $170. (+2-3 hours from a standing start.)
2 - rebuild the carburetor: $75 (+2-3 hours from a standing start). Or, replace it: $200.
3 - let the rear seal keep leaking. It isn't going to leak much. Is it worth $2-8k to avoid wiping down the bilge periodically?
4 - enjoy the boat.

 

[Wet Willy]

My suggested approach - slight variation on some of the posts above (prices assume a late-model A-4):


> Rebuild the water pump (Moyer Repair Kit $150) - Along with new seals, will provide all-new parts and a fresh impeller. May also help reduce water temp
> Rebuild the carb (Moyer Late Model Service Kit $ 86) - Rebuilding carbs and pumps are great winter projects
> Manage the leak. Assuming a small leak, oil absorbent pads under the back of the engine can keep the oil out of the bilge. Changing these pads once per month sure beats paying for a rebuild that is not really necessary.


Added benefit: greater understanding of how your engine is working for you!


​

 

[CamD]

I have taken the proactive approach to the problem and picked up an old Universal 5411 "atomic Diesel" out of a Catalina 30. They were an option with the A4 being the base engine in the late 70's so they are a drop in replacement. I rebuilt it and it is now sitting on a stand in my garage waiting for the day when my A4 breathes its last breath. It may have a long wait though as my A4 was converted to fresh water cooling in the early 90's. When I do swap them I will adapt the FWC system to the new motor which was also raw water cooled originally. The major issue with the conversion to diesel with the E29 (and 27 I think) is that the engine cover height will have to be increased to accommodate the greater height of the diesel.

 

[Loren Beach]

I have taken the proactive approach to the problem and picked up an old Universal 5411 "atomic Diesel" out of a Catalina 30. They were an option with the A4 being the base engine in the late 70's so they are a drop in replacement. I rebuilt it and it is now sitting on a stand in my garage waiting for the day when my A4 breathes its last breath. It may have a long wait though as my A4 was converted to fresh water cooling in the early 90's. When I do swap them I will adapt the FWC system to the new motor which was also raw water cooled originally. The major issue with the conversion to diesel with the E29 (and 27 I think) is that the engine cover height will have to be increased to accommodate the greater height of the diesel.

Strictly in the FWIW dept, a good friend of mine took out an ailing A4 gas and did his own install of a new Yanmar single cylinder. Since that's a vertical-cylinder model like most all the current "modern" diesels, it's worth noting that there were no overhead clearance problems.

As to "fit" just d/l the specs for any proposed changeover and do some measurements on your boat. What with all of the A4 resources available, I betcha you can find a set of measurements for that engine, too, to make comparisons easier.


Edit: here's an earlier thread with some input on the project.
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...Repower-an-E27-or-an-E29-survey&referrerid=28

Regards,
Loren

 

[Scott Abbott]

thanks for the comments...

Thanks for the feedback everybody. Responses here...
This year I turned 39. My goal when I bought the boat was to purchase a boat that was not too expensive/time consuming to maintain assuming I was willing to dedicate 6 weekends a year to bottom paint and make small repairs (once I had the boat under control from years of neglect); the boat needed to be heavily built, seaworthy, and capable of coastal and semi-offshore passages (Bahamas) once the boat was ready. I planned on keeping the boat for many years and eventually making some long cruises with friends and family (my 5 year old Godson too). So, I would like to do what makes sense long term even if it means I have to place it on the hard for a year (which I don't want to do).

Option #1: Rebuild My Own A-4 Option:
Truth is, I would rather take on just about any other project besides the A-4 rebuild. I just am not confident I could do it. I have the Moyer handbook and am reading it this Sunday morning to try and figure out where to go from here. I have never rebuilt (or even considered to) any engine. I don't have the knowledge... it would be a person starting literally from zero. What would that projected success rate be? I live three hours away from my boat, and would have to have the engine removed and set on a crate to drive home in my truck. I do have a buddy friend that has an open weather bay garage I could park the motor in to work on. In truth, the manual may make it real 'easy' to do for a mechanic or a shade tree mechanic, but I seem to need to take a sip from my beer every other paragraph, as I am having flashbacks of geometry proofs in the 9th grade. The manual assumes that the reader has background. Lastly, my A-4 I am sure has been in salt water most of its life if not all... not the best candidate to rebuild due the block cooling passages certainly having corrosion buildup in there, regardless of good compression I might have.

Option #2: Buy an existing freshwater A-4 from another mariner:
Get my hands on a working freshwater platform and try and rebuild it.

Option #3: A-4 Rebuilt from Moyer 'New Block Option':
If I spend the money to have the engine professionally changed out, and I was going to go ahead and keep the A-4 platform, I am leaning toward getting the new block option with added fresh water cooling. Do it once and be done with it. However, the 'new block option' adds $2K to the price. I am on the lower Chesapeake Bay, and it is certainly hard core salt water. The A-4 even was installed in the Cape Dory and the Alberg 30s for a time... both boats having circumnavs under their belts. Clearly the motor was well thought of at some point by people who knew better. Than again, smoking two packs a day was also considered just fine in 1976. Hmmmm.

Option #4: Beta Marine Replacement:
I am a bit overwhelmed on what money I have already outlaid to save/semi restore the boat up to now. I was hoping to get another few years from the engine. Our E27s look like they are only selling for $7k even when they are in ' good to excellent' shape. I would get violent if someone offered me that for mine. Depressing at best... wish I fully appreciated that before pulling out my wallet to restore the one I ended up buying for $4k. People looking at sailboats in the aftermarket are terrified of gas engines. My marina stops just short of spitting every time they say the word 'A-4'. Yet, if you read about the A-4 from Moyer Marine sources, and think about the fact that they were in so many boats (thousands) for so many years (35 years) and so few reported incidents (2). Hard for me be as fearful of it. Hell, as many of you have pointed out too, there are thousands of power boats with gas that leave the docks everyday without the result of a fiery death. However, due to range and safety, hard to deny that diesel is not superior. It clearly is. In my situation though, it seems cost prohibitive (as I would elect to have it done professionally). I have looked at the Beta Marine A-4 change out option. Has anyone done this on a 27?

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Scott Abbott]

I have taken the proactive approach to the problem and picked up an old Universal 5411 "atomic Diesel" out of a Catalina 30. They were an option with the A4 being the base engine in the late 70's so they are a drop in replacement. I rebuilt it and it is now sitting on a stand in my garage waiting for the day when my A4 breathes its last breath. It may have a long wait though as my A4 was converted to fresh water cooling in the early 90's. When I do swap them I will adapt the FWC system to the new motor which was also raw water cooled originally. The major issue with the conversion to diesel with the E29 (and 27 I think) is that the engine cover height will have to be increased to accommodate the greater height of the diesel.

How did you go about getting it?

 

[bigd14]

Hi Scott- I went through a similar calculation years ago. Knowing what I know now I wish I had rebuilt the A4 (and spent the money on all the other bits to make it work). A few years after deciding to forego the A4 rebuild, I had to completely rebuild a small outboard motor. I had never done anything like this and had no clue what I was doing. When I read the manual I was confused. But as soon as I started getting into it, I learned and things started to make sense. And by the time I was done, I was thinking to myself, "this is not too bad, I should have done this to the A4." I asked lots of questions of an outboard forum members and got some great answers. You have a great resource in the Moyer forums. So what you do not know now, you will pick up along the way. You can only learn this by doing it. I think it probably be less expensive to rebuild it, and if you run into trouble that cannot be fixed, you can go to plan B and you will not have lost anything, but you will have gained tons of knowledge about how the thing works. Do not let your fear of the unknown dissuade you, like it did me. Good luck with your decision, I know exactly what you are going through!

Doug

 

[Scott Abbott]

Thanks a lot Doug... I appreciate it. I guess if I were to even try I would have to pull the motor from the boat and get it into my truck to bring home. That I will have to consider

 

[tenders]

I 100% ditto Doug/bigd14's comments. I am living proof that there is nothing on the A4 that a curious ignoramus cannot figure out with a little bit of time and, perhaps, a lot of advice on the Moyer forum. Also keep in mind that a diesel is in no way a solution to the maintenance problem.

But as I said I don't think you need to rebuild her. What you've described as broken is eminently repairable or tolerable at relatively small expense.

 

[Macgyro]

Electric?

Have you looked at an inboard electric replacement? They're getting more powerful and cheaper every year. Plus no fumes, gas or oil mess about with.
Dean

 

[DanielW]

Beta

After spending thousands keeping an old Volvo-Penta 2002 going and having it literally explode 20 hours after a 4.5k rebuild earlier this year (ha!) I just bit the bullet and did what I should have done two years ago, I put a Beta 20 in. My engine woes are well documented in these forums. Latest Thread with video here :

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?11925-Beta-20-in-E-28

being able to go out without the stress of knowing there was at least a 50 percent chance of something going wrong is priceless. If you can afford it then I would thoroughly recommend you replace.

 

[windjunkee]

We had serious A-4 engine issues:

after patching it for years, including honing out the cylinders and multi valve jobs, our engine turned into a big blender (blending equal parts oil and sea water). We had to get it replaced. We paid $1000 for a used engine that ran and spent an additional $1000 to rebuild it (new valves, new rods, etc.). The installation was a PAIN. We had to replace the shaft flanges because the old ones were impossible to remove without destroying them. Then we couldn't align the engine. When we ran the engine, we found out the rebuild wasn't done well and had to reseat a bunch of the valves. Then a head bolt post broke. Once all that happened, we put it all back together and it wouldn't align. The engine bounced when it was run under load. Two years into the rebuild process, we finally pulled it out of the water and had a pro deal with it. He found that the engine block was slightly different from the original engine block so it sat differently on the mounts. The mounts had to be moved, and the shaft had to be replaced. The engine runs good now. We've had to rebuild the cabinetry to get it to fit the new engine placement but it works.

Total bill? Around $5000 when all is said and done. Out of commission from September, 2011 to October, 2013. We had other boats to sail on so repair wasn't a high priority, but every time we tried to address one problem, another came up. It took us 9 months to find an appropriate replacement because we were told by our "experts" that we shouldn't pay more than $1000 for a replacement A-4. Engines don't come up often, but when they do, they are priced all over the place. Tough to decide.

Hope this helps. If you're buying a replacement, measure the base of the block carefully. Ours was off by less than 1/2 inch, but that made a HUGE difference in our ability to align the new one. We replaced all the mounts and cleaned a bunch of rot out of the stringers that the mounts are attached to.

Jim McCone
Voice of Reason, E-32 Hull #134
Redondo Beach, CA

 

[Scott Abbott]

Reality vs. Glorification

Thanks Jim. That is a good dose of reality to offset a bit of the rebuild enthusiasm I am getting from so many others. I think rebuilding an A-4 without prior experience, while running my own business will not be easy... quite the opposite. I definitely share the belief that you should have a working knowledge of what you have in the boat and have an ability to trouble shoot typical problems that can arise with the system itself, but I am not sure that I need to know how to breakdown the entire engine and rebuild it. If I do spend the time to, and then have it put back into the boat, and it doesn't work, or does only for a few months... I wouldn't want to be with me when I found out the news. It would be ugly at best.

Your horror story of trying to do it yourself is not the typical scenario I am getting from others... and I have to think that unsuccessful people just aren't as vocal about the experience, and how great it wasn't. With that said, I own the Moyer manual and I have recently ordered the 3 full length videos dealing with the 3 major systems of the engine. Having some of that knowledge will only make me better and more prone to treat the engine right, maintain it well, better at identifying problems, and yes maybe... even deal with the more straight forward repairs. Sometimes I have learned, it pays to use a pro. I am still trying to figure out what makes sense for me here and my boat. I can't spend every night on my back porch tinkering with the engine. I just don't have that much time here at home. Whatever I do, will have to be done through longer trips to the boat as I live 3 hours away from my marina.

Thanks for the reality check.

 

[paul culver]

Have you looked at an inboard electric replacement? They're getting more powerful and cheaper every year. Plus no fumes, gas or oil mess about with.
Dean

I really like the electric option but I can't get past the 2-3K$ in batteries and the thought of replacing them when they reach their lifetime, not to mention finding space for eight of them. But I'm still considering...

Paul
E29 "Bear"

 

[Rob Salinas]

Hi "Friend"

I've been following your posts and finally have time to throw my $.01 in the cup.Glad you found the Moyer forum, it's amazing the knowledge, experience, and willingness to help anyone solve their A-4 challenges. Much like this awesome site for everything Ericson and more. How lucky are we! About your little beastie, first tell your "trusted" mechanic to take a hike. heck you can buy a sail ready boat with a perfect running motor for those numbers. He must be expecting a slow winter, or running out of customers. When I bought Maluhia,She had not left the slip in about a year, gas was leaking from the carb, water dripping from the pump, and it would not start, but the sound system rocked, SOLD! I had one week to get her running to move to another marina, or pay for another month, $160 more than the new slip.After a little research,rebuilt the carb at the boat, changed out fuel filters and all fuel lines, new plugs, and motored to my new home. IMHO get the thought remove and rebuild right out of your head. You have good running temp, 100+ psi in all cylinders(that's better then mine), no water in the oil,it's all good.I am RWC and have a fresh water flush connection wyed into water intake, works just fine.Vinegar flush once a year, acid flush every few,and your good. I've done everything you need to do recently. The guys over at Moyer have said everything I was going to say, so I'll leave it at that.It's not rocket science, and you will have confidence and knowledge to handle anything that can happen.I still laugh at all the BS people say about our little A-Bomb when they have to pay someone every time something happens to their diesel.In ten years and two A-4s, in two boats, I have NEVER (knock on teak) payed someone to work on my A-4.Its a great,reliable motor if properly maintained, besides I like having 30 horses ready if I need to put the spurs to her! So, roll up your sleeves and get your little beastie 100% reliable! I'll bet you a dollar "Lost Cause"will sail a lot better without 100 lbs hanging off Her transom! If you have questions about your A-4d E-27 feel free to PM me,or I'll shoot you my number and call.BTW nice work on the hatch! I might have to call you.

Rob

 

[Scott Abbott]

Rob thanks... mean that. It makes sense to me. My original goal was to take the boat from its dilapidated condition and get the boat to the point where I could take it down to Florida next winter etc. I have had the boat totally rewired with new L.E.D. mast lights & interior lights, new antennae and marine radio, new circuit panel with 3 battery bay (2 as house batteries, abandoned several through hulls, rebed the entire boat (no soft spots), gelcoat ding repairs, new hatch covers I made and installed, and a kick butt marine stereo system. Now I am working on the boom as you may know. With that said, I should feel really good about the boat... but I don't. Now that I have got some sailing miles under my feet, I now truly appreciate the importance of having a dependable engine... it shouldn't be called an auxiliary engine. I have gotten to the point now where putting any more serious money into the boat would be really stupid (in that I mean having professional help moving forward). Truth is, with my situation, I needed help to get the thing out on the water and not just be another boat in the marina that is a lifetime project. So I think the boat is in a good place right now, but this engine thing is overwhelming. I need the engine here to tinker with it. That is the problem. I am going to try and take a look at the situation and try and re-evaluate. I have already had the engine converted to electronic ignition and had the wiring harness replaced. I feel like If I had the engine under control, I could then do a good job of maintaining it, but to start out of the gate and expect a guy like me to pull the engine and rebuild the damn thing sounds like I need to quite my job or get some help.