Adding a Staysail on a Removable Inner Forestay on an E 32-3

[nquigley]

Here's a photo of the finished product, and a PDF document with the detailed write-up.

 

[Jay Sauls]

Good stuff! Way above my sailing ability, but I always wondered about a staysail.

 

[nquigley]

Thanks for checking it out.

 

[Geoff W.]

So could you sail it like a cutter rig if you wanted?? I wonder how the 32-3 would handle rigged like that.

 

[toddster]

Very cool! I think they call it a "slutter" rig. I've seen old pictures of E29 (tall rig?) sailed that way. Can't find one now, of course.

I've had this project on the back burner for a while. Collecting hardware pieces. Interesting that my doodles match your dimensions pretty well, given a slightly smaller boat. Actually they match almost exactly, but my drawing is tacked near deck level. (Violation of Rule 6.) It makes a difference of about 10 square feet (90 vs 100). A different rule-of-thumb I heard (From Carol Hesse, Port Townsend Sails) suggested that 100 square feet would be the minimum useful size, while your rules suggest that 80 would do. Hmm. Interesting compromise... I've already got a storm jib to fly on the RIFS - the larger staysail would be cut down from an old jib - just for a fun shop project. Zero extra dollars. It might even be useful. The way my boat heels too much and sloooows down going to windward in much over 25 knots is a little disappointing. Probably I'm doing something(s) wrong, but maybe this could help.

The deck/bulkhead reinforcement seems to be the limiting step. But that fitting is where I also plan to terminate my jacklines. And as I've been itching to play with the spinnaker, guess I'd better heat up the project.

For guidance on backstays or RBS, I've been contemplating the difference in rigging that Mr. King designed for the E31 cutter vs sloop rigs. I.e. the aft mid shrouds. I've got a couple of extra chainplates that could be installed at that location.

Can't help wondering if it's just coincidence that a line drawn from the pole lift tang to the forward bulkhead ends up exactly parallel to the forestay... hmm...

Re the mag photo - I seem to see a number of odd things with those jacklines. Entangled with the anchor chain and anchor locker door? One reason I want mine terminated at the RIFS fitting. I see that boat also has a storm trysail rigged for deployment in a custom bag at the mast.

 

[nquigley]

Re the pic in that article: Jack lines need to terminate back from the pulpit so you can't go too far overboard on the end of your tether. Your tether should be at its max extension when you're working at the bow. Cheers.

 

[toddster]

That too

Oh yeah... we now have the ability to link to images on the web, for reference:

Hmm... upon enlargement, maybe that's actually a spinnaker bag or something back there.

 

[peaman]

Excellent work and write-up of your design progress. I'm sure I will revisit your notes in the future.
Thank you.

P.S.: After two years, do you have any comments, new findings, regrets, etc.?

 

[nquigley]

Thanks!
I'm not out cruising yet, so haven't had a lot of use out of it, but the set up and overall design has worked well. I don't think I'd change anything if starting over now. I've recently (finally) got around to making up a set of adjustable removable running backstays (dyneema) which seem to fit, but haven't been used in anger yet.

 

[Shawn Brooks]

I'm seriously consider doing this to my 32-3 this year. Do you think the backstays are necessary?

 

[nquigley]

I think they’ll only be needed in strong breeze, and a rough seaway, one a long passage, where you might get constant pumping for a long time.
But, in these conditions, you’d probably be at your third reef. If the reefed main’s head is about at the level of the forestay attachment point, I’ve read that the main’s leach would help support the forestay. (?)

 

[toddster]

Well there is the situation of running under storm jib alone, where the main or trysail wouldn't be there for help.

I've since noticed that there are a couple of drawings in the E29 manual enigmatically titled "E29 double head rig." As usual, they only tell half (or less) of the story. One just shows a pad-eye bolted to the deck for the tack. 4 x 1/4" screws with nuts and 1/2" washers. No reinforcement or nothin. The other shows a pretty elaborate set of hardware for sheeting the staysail to two cabin-top winches. Not located where I would have thought. I realize that this totally depends on the shape of the sail. (Or vice verse) Makes me wonder what the intended sail looked like. Maybe I need to contemplate "the rules" some more.

 

[steven]

Here is a brochure picture for the E35-2, same vintage as E-29.
Showing an overlapping deck sweeping staysl sheeted to the cabin top.

I'm not sure there is a reason to actually set sails in this configuration.
But it looks cool.

 

[toddster]

Weird. It could well have been something like that. Coincidentally, one of the mis-fit used headsails that came to me with the boat would fit almost like that, but the clew is higher. I was going to cut it up for sewing projects. Or maybe see if there was a logical way to cut it down to fit.

 

[Christian Williams]

Staysails were useful before the advent of roller furling gear. But if you can just roll up a foresail nowadays....

 

[nquigley]

Essentially reefing the jib by furling some away is ok initially, but the more you roll away, the less efficient the remaining sail shape is. Also, the center of effort of the fore-triangle goes forward - you want the opposite as the wind speed gets higher. For our boats, with relatively small J measurements, the probably is only a narrow band of wind speed and wind angle where a well-designed staysail (or storm jib) will really pay for itself. I read somewhere that you gain a knot of boat speed if you put up a staysail up and you gain a knot if you take it down

 

[toddster]

And if it doesn’t, you make a nifty hammock out of the thing. Or trade it for a bunch of bananas and use the extra space for more beer.

I am hoping that the thing will help keep the boat on its feet and still make some progress in 30 knots, but we shall see. Also supposed to be helpful on a long reach. Can’t wait to get out where I can reach for more than five minutes at a time!

It turns out that when you actually acquire all of these heavy wind and light wind sails, and their rigging, and put them on the boat, it fills up the sail locker. You know… that place where the SUP and the spare parts and the SCUBA gear and the bicycle are stored.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Staysails were useful before the advent of roller furling gear. But if you can just roll up a foresail nowadays....

I really think that staysails are something from another time. The Roths and Hiscocks are from a time before reliable roller furling and reliable world wide long range weather forecasting. As Christian suggests roller furling has really changed things from when you could imagine that you had a larger hanked on sail up and found yourself caught in a sudden gale clawing off a lee shore against a bunch of rollers. I have delivered a couple "cruising boats" with an standby staysail rigging and, in both cases, the way they were rigged (or not rigged) would have caused me more concern than trying everything else first if I found myself in a bad spot. Do you have experience know how to use running backstays (learning in a blow is probably not advised)? Is the staysail forestay well linked from the deck to a knee or bulkhead? Imagining using a staysail on most rigs without running backstays would seem kind of risky. And running backstays are a PIA if you have ever had to use them--an accidental jibe with the wrong one engaged could dismast you--I don't know of any way to put them up just when you need them--and you need them in most cases if you actually imagine using a staysail in a blow.. Are you really going to go up there and hank that staysail on in a blow you did not anticipate? The deck of most production boats would need to have a chainplate connected to a bulkhead or knee well bedding the hull to bear the stresses. I guess if I was doing a regular route crossing the North Sea, my thoughts might be different but it seems that the need for mosts folks to have staysails went the way of baggywrinkle. Just another view FWIW.

 

[nquigley]

I'm planning to use it offshore when conditions and heading make it beneficial and practical to leave it up for many hours at a stretch. I didn't spring for a staysail on it's own removable roller-furler, which would be the ideal set-up. Also, it was built as a slightly oversized storm jib. Hopefully, I'll never have to use it in that mode, but if I do, it'll be there..

 

[windblown]

The first owner of Tradewinds had an IF installed before the boat was delivered. It's wire and can be released at the base and stowed at the mast using a bridal. Our sail inventory includes a hank-on staysail in good condition. We haven't used yet.