Assy spinn tack line....

stbdtack

Member III
Curious how any of you have run your assy spinn tack line. Over the house to a stopper or down the toerail. I have seen it run both ways and looking for opinions. Mine is coming from the anchor roller and down the toerail now.
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
We go over...

I go through the deck organizer, then to one of the self tailing 17's on the coachtop. It's not perfect, but it works. I've also seen it run along the side of the coach and put through a side mounted clutch, adjusting it on the jib winch. Do you use a stanchion furling line lead on it?
Chris
 

stbdtack

Member III
Spinn tack line...

chris,
Mine goes from the block on the anchor roller to a single about mid ship at a stanchion base then to a cleat aft. I like the side mounted spinlock idea but i need to decide which winch to use. I can use my cabintop Harken 40s or the primary Barlows for the Spinn sheets. And my coach roof is running out of room for any more lines. But I think I could use 1 bullseye by the forward hatch and have a fair lead to a spinlock on the coachroof .

Btw I stopped by Z's when I was in solomons over xmas. Your boat looks terrific!! I didnt get to see it for very long as it was cold and blowing like stink. I made a dash for the Dry Dock and a warm drink. I cant believe how that place has changed in 15 years!
 

Nigel Barron

Notorious Iconoclast
As this picture sort of shows, we have a block on the bow of the E27, then the tack line comes staboard, over the cabin house, ending at a cam cleat next to the hatch. No winch. We did get caught with our .9 reacher up in 30+ knots at the Duwamish Head race last weekend. Rounded up. We then went to the .75 runner and were a lot more stable. I like having the tack line come to the cabin house so that everything is in the same place.
 

Attachments

stbdtack

Member III
spinn tack

Nigel,
I agree and am prob going to change it to run over the house and back with the other control lines.
 

Nick Reynolds

Member II
How are you using this?

Sorry to ask, but I think I understood where this line is, and how you all are running it around the boat. But, how do you use it? What is it for?

Thanks for the help.
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Tack line...

Basic concept is like squaring back the pole on a symetrical...
While you're closer to the wind (say 90 apparent) the tack line (and thus tack) stays tight to keep the draft and shape similar to a jib. As you turn deeper, easing the tackline will help to rotate the sail to windward, making the effort push more ahead than sideways. It also allows the shoulders to work, providing a big full downwind sail. By running the line back to where it can be adjusted easily, it allows for better overall sailtrim at multiple points of sail.
I'm sure someone here can explain the physics of it better, but it's a handy adjustment to have.
Chris
 

NateHanson

Sustaining Member
Do any of you run your tackline to a sleeve around the furled genoa, or are you flying the tack of your Asym free on the tackline?

Nate
 

Cory B

Member III
Assy spinn tack line...

I have our tack line on our old E32 attached to the tack point for the jib (its on a furler now). My theory is that having it tacked to the deck allows the spin to rotate a bit more in front of the boat when sailing deep (which I have to do in the river usually), hopefully eliminating some of the hobby-horsing that happens as the wind pipes up.

- Cory Bolton
 

ted_reshetiloff

Contributing Partner
I use the tacker but most others I think on this site are not big fans. The shape of my kite seems to fly better with this than straight off the bow.
 

Keith Parcells

Sustaining Member
Assy tack line

Ben,
This is a good thread you started. Our tack line for our gennaker is fairly short. We tie it off at the base of the mast. We might want to reconsider & add a longer tackline that we can control from the cockpit. But on the other hand, do you really need to control it from the cockpit? We only fly it when conditions allow for someone (that would be me!!!) to be working the foredeck. Do you really want it flying without someone able to easily get up there? If someone is on the foredeck he can adjust the tackline. I would think that even if racing, you want someone able to hop to the foredeck at a moments notice when you fly any type of spinnaker.

By the way, we use the tacker with our gennaker, but discussions here have made me wonder if we should go without it. We don't have too much experience with it (flew it only ~3-4 times), but it is a gas when we can hoist it!
Keith
E-33
Rocinante
 

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stbdtack

Member III
tack line....

Hi Keith,
Your spinn looks great there. I use the adjustable tack line to change the shape on different wind angles. I can tension it to get a flat entry for reaching and ease it to open the luff and "fly it" back to windward for better downwind performance. On my Morgan 416, I have a fixed pennant for the tack and just ease the halyard a bit to open the luff, but for performance I think its best to keep the sail up high as possible and let the tack raise if needed.
I dont have any winches forward so i wouldnt be able to tension it under load if I didnt have it led back to the cockpit.
I like the tacker idea, I havent used one but it seems to be a good idea to stabilize the tack and keep it to windward since you dont have a pole to control the position.
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
Keith, using a fixed tack line is great as long as you stay in the directional range for it's lenght (going back to symetrical kites: you wouldn't run deep with the pole way up by the headstay). The adjustable just gives your spinnaker a little more range with the wind. The picture you have (nice shot!) looks like you are reaching, so the tack length is about right. If you wanted to run deeper, you want to let the tack of the sail rotate to windward, and an adjustable tack line, minus the tacker, will do that. The sail will rotate on it's own without a pole, given the chance.
As far as the safety stuff goes, if you have a tack line run back to the cockpit, you shouldn't need to go to the bow... but do what works.
I'm not a big fan of the tacker for asyms, I think they are a fantastic idea for using a symetrical without a pole.

These are just my thoughts- take em for what they're worth...
Attached is a picture of our dayglow kite.
Chris

BTW- where are your spin sheets run to? It's hard to tell in that picture...
 

Attachments

stbdtack

Member III
spinn tack

Chris,
Where is your tack line attached? In the pic it looks like its against the pulpit. Also where are your sheets led to. I have a doyle APC with about the same dim as yours. My sheets go to turning blocks on the toe rail just aft of the primarys.
I'm thinking of another set of blocks fwd or maybe a set of twings to pull the leads down. Any thoughts?
 

Chris Miller

Sustaining Member
changed since then...

Hi Ben,
I had the tack line running through a block connected to the forstay in that photo- I did run into some issue with it rubbing on the pulpit (drove me nuts!), and also tried running it inside the pulpit, but then it rubbed when I let it out. My North rep suggested putting it out on the anchor pin, so that's where it is now. The anchor pin works really well. Of course you'll hear me screaming from the bay if it ever breaks!:soapbox:

I run to those same blocks and just trim on the jib winches, although I've been contemplating a move to rachet blocks... I don't really worry about twings since it's not a full enough cut to run deep enough to get in the way of the boom.

Chris
 

stbdtack

Member III
tack line

Chris,
I use the anchor roller also. I dont use the anchor pin as Im afraid it may bend under load. I drilled a separate hole for the block on the port side of the roller and I can leave it up there all the time. Our rollers may be different but mine exits to the stbd side of the forestay and the port side of the roller is welded very stoutly to the bow fitting. With some anchor rollers I would not recommend putting a load pulling up.

I have my spinn sheet turning blocks positioned so that i can also winch from the cabin top winches. Comes in handy when the primarys are needed for the jib sheets. I wish i had more room for secondary winches on the coaming but at least I'm saving weight (and the cost of 2 more winches) I think the rachet blocks you mention or some kind of locking system would be really helpful when i move the sheets between winches. I'm still looking for the perfect way to get real footblocks on the coaming. A local 38-200 has nice looking SS platforms for his footblocks.

If it had been warmer in solomons (and the bar wasnt so convenient)I would have looked at your setup more closely :oops:
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Chris is on it!

Keith-Nice shot indeed-but that lead position looks a bit too far forward for the angle you are sailing-looks OK for broad reaching and deeper, but at this angle the foot is too round, and the leech is too tight. This translates into too much heel, and sideways thrust. If you move the lead aft and flatten the foot and open the leech, you will be flatter and faster with less helm to boot.

Just like a genny, the lead position cannot be correct in the same place for all sailing angles-it must be farther aft for closer angles (and higher winds to help depower the sail when needed) and forward for deeper angles (and lighter airs to power the sail up when needed)-if not, you are either losing efficiency or actually causing control problems (at the extremes, of course).

With respect to Chris' comments:

1). Tackers-I agree-they hurt the sails' abiltiy to rotate to weather at deeper angles, and offer very little beneft when close reaching-yes they keep the tack closer the the HS, but I'm not sure what this gains in the real world.
2). Anchor roller hole as anchor for tackline block: YES-very strong, and gets you the cleanest leads
3).No need for tweaker, twing lines, or whatever they are called where you sail-Although-if you want to leave the sheet leads aft (for closer reaches), and tweak them down for deeper angles, this definitely works, and works well. But for a cruiser, I think ou can just move the lead fwd when you need to (deeper angles and/or lighter air), and save the expense and complicated deck layout..

S:D
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Great thread. Seth what does moving the spinnaker lead forward do when sailing deeper? It seems easing the sheet from the aft lead position would be a better angle. Does the forward lead position help rotate the spinnaker to windward?
Mark
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Hi Mark!

With a genoa, jib, or cruising spinnaker, let's assume you have the right lead spot for a beam reach, for example. How do we know it is the right spot?

Because the luff is "hitting" the wind at a constant angle from top to bottom-meaning the entire height of the sail is working for you as it should. How can we tell if the luff angle of attack is constant from top to bottom? If you have luff telltales at 2-3 different height on the luff, if you slowly head up from you properly trimmed beam reach-without touching the sheets, you will see the top and bottom inside telltales "break" or begin to lift at the same time.

If the upper telltale goes up and the lower stays flowing, it means the top of the sail has a SMALLER angle of attack than the bottom, and is luffing eariler than the bottom (in effect, it is sailing closer to the wind than the bottom).

If the lower breaks and the top is cool, then the lower part of the sail is "sailing closer to the wind than the top. The by product of this, if the sail is designed and built right, is the you have proper flow from the leech.

Now, lets say you bear away to a very deep angle and let the sheet out accordingly, but with out moving the lead forward. As you ease the sheet, the top part of the sail always "goes out" more than the bottom, since the vertical loads on the sail are the ones which get reduced more than the horizontal loads as you ease-therefore you are easing the top of the sail more than the bottom- This causes the leech to rise up. and if you imagine the whole sail following that movement, the top part of the luff also goes "up" and in effect gets closer to the wind (the angle of attack up high gets smaller relative to the bottom part), and you now have that same situation as if the lead were too far aft-the top of the sail is not working for you.

I have a cold and am kinda fuzzy today-let me just boil this down: On your genny, when you are reaching along (beam-broad reach), have you ever noticed the top of the sail is luffing and the bottom is not? And you don't see this when close hauled..This is because you eased the sheet while leaving the lead alone. If you pull the lead forward until the telltales break together, you will see the whole sail is working without the top luffing.

OK, back to the kite. If you ease the sheet, the top of the sail will become soft and not work as hard-there is less load on the leach than there was when you had it trimmed in, right?

So, as you ease and see the top of the sail getting soft, just move the lead ahead until this is no longer happening. A good way to tell is with luff telltales, or, to get in the ballpark, another way is to imagine the sheet going from the block, through the clew and extending an imaginary line to the luff.

This imaginary line should hit the headstay about 55-65 % of the way up the headstay. If you see it is hitting at 50% or less, move the lead forward. Higher than about 70%, move it aft. The ideal % for a genoa is 55%-this is how we design the sails when figuring where it will sheet on the boat. For kites it is 5-10% higher.

In the case of that photo I commented on, the lead is forward, pulling too much on the leech, causing helm and heel and less thrust, and I would bet if you extended the sheet towards the headastay, you would see it intersecting the HS at about 80% or higher. I looked, and it does!

Sorry to be long-winded-I am under the weather, so to speak. let me know if this was not clear. Having the lead right can easily make a difference of up to a knot of boatspeed in many conditions...

Safe sailing!

S:cool:
 

escapade

Inactive Member
more trim tricks

Seth
Sorry to hear you are down w/flu. The Admiraless had it last week & I been lucky so far. But you know as soon as you start bragging....
Anyway, another trick we have found is helpful when reaching is to lead a sheet to the outboard track. Gives you a much better angle on the genoa and helps to keep from closing off the slot. Set the car as you would to keep tellltales streaming. Also, as you sail deeper angles with the genoa poling the clew out w/spinnaker pole also helps. It's amazing the speed difference possible when doing this. When racing JAM all these litle things come in handy!
I'm a better headsail trimmer than main. Norm (Capt on the mac boat & main trimmer on Escapade) is our main sail expert. They typically won't let me behind the mast!
Have fun & sail fast
Bud E34 "Escapade":cheers:
 
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