Battery upgrade project

[Loren Beach]

There seems to be an on-going Ericson discussion of battery upgrades or changes. Here is a picture of the main change I made to our Olson. The original set-up from the factory was a pair of group 24 12-volt batteries mounted under the bottom step, in a molded-in pan in front of the engine. I took them out when they were near the end of their life, at 7 years. I put in a separate starting battery under the aft cabin berth. I put a pair of Trojan T-145 golf cart batteries where the smaller 12's used to be.
The new "house" bank is now 244 amp hours. This pair weighs 144 #. This is about the equivalent of a single "8D".
Our starting battery is a Trojan AGM, sized close to a "group 31", and is a bit oversized for our 3 cylinder diesel, but I would rather have too much power rather than too little on a cold morning.

Loren in Porland, OR
Olson 34 #8

 

[Loren Beach]

House Bank History

Here it is, May of 2007, and that house bank had been there since June of '01.
I decided not to risk any battery worries during our upcoming vacation... and just go ahead and replace this bank. Interestingly enough, the current Trojan "T-145 Plus" is a slightly taller case, different fill caps that flip open and shut, and a flat mounted stud and nut for the power leads. The AH rating is now 260 (!) at the "20 Hour Rate AH", and the weight is 72#per battery. Price went up about 50% since that last purchase, also. Our dealer sez that lead prices have been rising a lot during the last two years...
While I hear that it is possible to get up to ten years out of these, the dealer/distributor tells me that anything over 6 years is a bonus.
Battery link: http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=T-145 Plus

Since boaters seem to like to compare energy creation, storage, and measurment, I thought that you might want to know this little bit of annecdotal history. To reiterate, that bank of two batteries has not given me any trouble -- this was strictly a proactive move.

Loren in PDX

ps: anyone out there found room in their Ericson or Olson for those tall case Rolls batteries?

 

[Loren Beach]

New Again

Moving forward in time, this month saw replacement of the two T-45+ Trojan's.
This spring we found that the bank would not hold a charge for our first overnight outing.

Since these have worked quite well, two more of the same model were sourced and installed.

I did take my sweet time moving them from my truck to a cart and from the cart to our two-step boarding step by the boat. Then up to the deck, and finally inside down the companionway steps, one step at a time. No turning or twisting and only lifting each battery about a foot at a time. Using knees and not bending.
Interesting coincidence that each battery weighs 72#, which equals my age...


Trojan now rates these batteries at 260 AH. Since this is higher than a decade ago, I wonder what changed?

When these get replaced in another decade perhaps I ought to hire a younger person to do this lifting! :0

Info for anyone else contemplating this particular battery:
Price and specs:
T-145+ 6 volt golf cart.
Size: L=10 3/8 W=7 1/8 H=11 1/2

530 RC & 260 AH.
$175.00 each, discounted.

Regards,
Loren

 

[Frank Langer]

Hi Loren,

Interesting reading about battery set-ups and length of battery life. We are still going with our Seavolt/West Marine group 27 deep cycle gel cel house batteries that were purchased in 2001 and tests at the local battery shop show them to still be good, though I know I'm way past borrowed time. We also have a Trojan group 24 wet cell starting battery that I purchased in 2007 that still does the job. I am fairly frugal with energy use on our boat, and never let the battery charge levels go too low before recharging, and try to keep all connections clean and tight.

Batteries are so expensive that any extra time one can get from them saves money, but I'm also wondering when my luck will run out. I'm considering AGMs next time as they seem to get better reviews and don't emit any gases into the cabin area. I would like to get golf cart batteries but so far they are just a little too tall to fit in the battery compartment under the quarterberth.

Frank

 

[Christian Williams]

The new boat came with three expensive WM Group 31 AGMS, all of them recently fried by the ancient diode shore charger.

As of today I have a new Mastervolt 20 amp shore charger--and three new of the same batteries (about $260 each from WM after my installer's discount).

It seems like overkill. But then, it;s my first refrigerator ever.

 

[Peter K]

Loren,

I am considering going with the T-145s you are using. I currently have 2 interstate SRM 24s for a house bank. I do not have a separate starter battery - just use the house bank to start.

I have a 1988 32-200 with the battery compartment under under the cushion in the aft cabin.

I am just getting familiar with the 6V option. It looks from the dimensions that other than height the 6v Trojan 145 is about the same size as my current Interstate 12v batteries which leads me to some basic questions:

1. What is the difference between a 6V and 12V battery and do I loose anything by moving from a 24V system (pair of 12volts) to a 12V system (pair of T-145s)?
2. Can I hook up the T-145s the same way I have my 12v batteries hooked up?

Thanks!

Peter

 

[Loren Beach]

Maximizing the House Bank

We have some knowledgable marine electricians on the site, so they can help with some of your questions.
You hook up the two six volt batteries in series to output 12 volts. This gives you one "battery bank" in that location.
You did not ask, but it would seem wise to carry a spare emergency battery, in case you find out your main bank has discharged too much... at 5 am... like we did.

I know that your boat has limitations on battery sizing (height and width), so just check the specs carefully.

BTW, I seriously doubt that your Ericson has a 24 volt system, at least not from the factory. The factory DC supply in all of our boats is separate 12 volt batteries, switched on one at a time. The boat runs on 12 volts. The old 1-2-all switch just provides a way to utilize both 12 volt batteries, in parallel, to produce 12 volts at double the potential amps.

Remember that you do change the cabling for a pair of six volt batteries, to produce one 12 volt Bank.
See my battery bank pictured here:
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?485-2016-New-Batteries-New-Smartgauge

Regards,
Loren

 

[Peter K]

OK got it so it is a 12V system. Yes, I have the 1,2, All switch. So, if I set up 2 6V T-145 in series the system acts like 1 battery, right. So the 1,2, All switch is no longer used?

Thanks!

Peter

 

[Loren Beach]

OK got it so it is a 12V system. Yes, I have the 1,2, All switch. So, if I set up 2 6V T-145 in series the system acts like 1 battery, right. So the 1,2, All switch is no longer used?

Thanks!
Peter

I would always use the Master Switch for it's main safety feature - a quick way to turn 'on' or 'turn off' the entire boat's high-amperage DC power. You would just end up with using only the #1 position and have no cable to the #2 stud on the back of that heavy duty switch.

Loren

 

[Jason G]

I have been researching the Firefly batteries and plan to replace my 3 group 31 Trojan AGM house bank batteries with two Firefly batteries. I like the idea of being able to safely deep cycle down to 20% capacity without damage to the battery. I try to keep the AGM battery discharge rate to no more than 50% of capacity. 3ea 100amp AGM discharged to 50% is 150 amps useable. 2ea Firefly 100amp batteries discharged to 20% is 160 amps useable. Yes the cost more but you don't need as many of them. My Trojan G31 batteries are old and if I start out at 12.7v it only takes about 35 amps of discharge to drop to 12.3v

http://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/

-Jason

 

[Loren Beach]

I have been researching the Firefly batteries and plan to replace my 3 group 31 Trojan AGM house bank batteries with two Firefly batteries. I like the idea of being able to safely deep cycle down to 20% capacity without damage to the battery. I try to keep the AGM battery discharge rate to no more than 50% of capacity. 3ea 100amp AGM discharged to 50% is 150 amps useable. 2ea Firefly 100amp batteries discharged to 20% is 160 amps useable. Yes the cost more but you don't need as many of them.

http://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/

-Jason

I wonder if the rest of your DC system will need changing? Have you sourced a charger that will work with them? Will you need a new alternator controller?

Loren

ps: Here is an article on the technology, link courtesy of a friend with some even more hi tech batteries. (!)
http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/Can-Carbon-Foam-Batteries-Meet-Hype-11694-1.html

 

[Jason G]

I have read that you charge them the same way you charge AGM batteries. I've got a Balmar alternator and regulator setup and a 20amp Xantrax shore power charger. The E34-2 factory battery box only holds two G31 size batteries and is located under the aft bunk. My optima starting battery and one of the Trojan G31 batteries is in the factory box. The other two Trojan G31 batteries are under the settee in front of the galley sink. I don't much like the idea of the house bank being split into two locations which is another reason to only have two Firefly G31 batteries and put them in the factory battery box. The starting battery can move to under the settee.

-Jason

 

[sailinggreg]

Connecting two batteries

We have some knowledgable marine electricians on the site, so they can help with some of your questions.

I hope so! This seems like the most relevant forum so I'll ask my question here rather than start a new forum.

Its time for new batteries on my 1980 Ericson 30+. I've only owned her a couple years, and before this I never got around to looking at and understanding in detail the battery-charging system.

I plan to buy two new 12-volt, deep cycle batteries. I've got the typical Off-1-Both-2 selector switch on the panel. My question is about the cabling connecting the batteries. Right now the black cable goes to the negative terminal on one of the batteries (duh) with a crossover cable to the negative terminal on the other battery. But the two red cables both go to the positive terminal on one battery, with nothing going to the positive terminal on the other battery.

Does that make sense? I just don't understand how the selector switch does anything if both red cables go to one battery? Someone said it might have something to do with the cross over of the black cable, or the recharger?

See picture attached. In the picture, the black crossover cable is disconnected from the second battery. The boat yard disconnected it because the battery actually started smoking (hadn't added water in too long, now I know better). I suppose there's a chance the boat yard moved the red cable from the second battery to the first (trying to start the engine to do engine maintenance?) but the boat yard didn't say anything about that and the cables don't look like they've been moved anytime lately. So I don't want to just blindly connect the new batteries the way the old ones are unless I'm sure.

Thanks for any help.

Greg

 

[Tom Metzger]

A red wire from each side of the 1-2-both switch goes to the positive post of the indicated battery. There should also be smaller wires from the battery charger going to either both positive terminals on the batteries or the 1 & 2 studs on the 1-2-both switch.

Up to date standards also require fuses on each wire at the batteries, but not in the old standards in effect when your boat was built, so beyond the scope of your question. Just mentioned to cover my butt.

I should add that the black jumper goes between the two negative battery terminals with another black wire going to the engine block from either negative terminal. Not fused.

Also, it is good practice to replace the wing nuts on the batteries with stainless hex nuts so they can be properly tightened. They are 5/16 - 18 nuts and use a 1/2" wrench to tighten.

 

[sailinggreg]

A red wire from each side of the 1-2-both switch goes to the positive post of the indicated battery. There should also be smaller wires from the battery charger going to either both positive terminals on the batteries or the 1 & 2 studs on the 1-2-both switch.

Up to date standards also require fuses on each wire at the batteries, but not in the old standards in effect when your boat was built, so beyond the scope of your question. Just mentioned to cover my butt.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for your simple and clear reply. This certainly seems to be my set up. You can see the smaller wires in the picture. I remember when I had an electrician on the boat he added a fuse on each wire just as you mentioned. Those small wires are even labeled so I will double check when I'm on the boat but I remember they go to the charger.

So I guess the boat yard did in fact move the red cable from the positive terminal of one battery to the other. I guess either since the battery was smoking they didn't want to leave anything connected to it, didn't want to leave the red cable just dangling, or maybe since they didn't know which one was battery 1 and battery 2 they connected both the red cables to the one battery to try and charge it and start the boat. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks,

Greg

 

[frick]

AGM Battery

Hi Loren,

Interesting reading about battery set-ups and length of battery life. We are still going with our Seavolt/West Marine group 27 deep cycle gel cel house batteries that were purchased in 2001 and tests at the local battery shop show them to still be good, though I know I'm way past borrowed time. We also have a Trojan group 24 wet cell starting battery that I purchased in 2007 that still does the job. I am fairly frugal with energy use on our boat, and never let the battery charge levels go too low before recharging, and try to keep all connections clean and tight.

Batteries are so expensive that any extra time one can get from them saves money, but I'm also wondering when my luck will run out. I'm considering AGMs next time as they seem to get better reviews and don't emit any gases into the cabin area. I would like to get golf cart batteries but so far they are just a little too tall to fit in the battery compartment under the quarterberth.

Frank

I have found that AGMS are twice the price and last about as long the old lead acid... Not sure it worth the extra money.
rick+

 

[KTROBI_VALHALLA]

There seems to be an on-going Ericson discussion of battery upgrades or changes. Here is a picture of the main change I made to our Olson. The original set-up from the factory was a pair of group 24 12-volt batteries mounted under the bottom step, in a molded-in pan in front of the engine. I took them out when they were near the end of their life, at 7 years. I put in a separate starting battery under the aft cabin berth. I put a pair of Trojan T-145 golf cart batteries where the smaller 12's used to be.
The new "house" bank is now 244 amp hours. This pair weighs 144 #. This is about the equivalent of a single "8D".
Our starting battery is a Trojan AGM, sized close to a "group 31", and is a bit oversized for our 3 cylinder diesel, but I would rather have too much power rather than too little on a cold morning.

Loren in Porland, OR
Olson 34 #8

Loren: Where did you get that nice low profile battery box?

 

[Loren Beach]

Loren: Where did you get that nice low profile battery box?

It was for sale at the battery store I shop at in Portland (Trojan Battery dealer). They had several sizes for differing battery sizes.
It is a welded poly box built by some industrial supplier; I betcha most battery shops have something like it.
Also great for us because the lid can bear my weight to stand on when going in and out of the interior when the steps over the engine are set aside.

Loren

 

[Peter K]

Tom,
I put in a Trojan 27 bank on my 32-200 based on all the great detail on this site and pbase.com. I did put in fuses too. The 50AMP blew when starting the 25XPB engine. What do you recommend for fuse size?
Thanks!
Pete

 

[Tom Metzger]

Tom,
I put in a Trojan 27 bank on my 32-200 based on all the great detail on this site and pbase.com. I did put in fuses too. The 50AMP blew when starting the 25XPB engine. What do you recommend for fuse size?
Thanks!
Pete

I suspect the starter is rated at 1kw which is 83 amps at 12 volts, plus glow plugs, stereo, instruments, lights, etc. I would recommend 150 amps minimum, and probably 200 amps would be better. You are OK as long as the fuse size doesn't exceed the rating of the wire. There should also be fuses on branch circuits, sized to protect the wires and/or the equipment involved.