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Bilge maintenance questions

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
I have a few questions related to the bilge ..

1. I just had a major diesel service where all filters were cleaned / replaced and noticed a small amount of what looked/smelled like diesel fuel ( red color ) in the bilge ( Mabel total a pint ) . I sucked it out dry into a separate container . Is it normal to see this after maintenance? I’m thinking perhaps when changing filters some fuel inevitably leaks out ?

2. After filling the bilge with fresh water to test the auto float switch and pump . The pump does go on , but bilge not draining . Something must be clogged . Is there anything obvious I should check before taking the pump out.?

3 . Where does the bilge pump output hose go to ? Is there a port on the hull ? ( I’ve never seen it drain )

4. there is a switch in the head that says “bilge pump“ on it . Not sure what this is for . I don’t hear anything. Is there a separate pump for the shower bilge ?

Thank you
 

goldenstate

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
I have a few questions related to the bilge ..

1. I just had a major diesel service where all filters were cleaned / replaced and noticed a small amount of what looked/smelled like diesel fuel ( red color ) in the bilge ( Mabel total a pint ) . I sucked it out dry into a separate container . Is it normal to see this after maintenance? I’m thinking perhaps when changing filters some fuel inevitably leaks out ?

Red stuff is diesel, yes. Should be no more than tablespoons if one is careful. Mistakes happen so good to have absorbent pads handy during the swap.


“2. After filling the bilge with fresh water to test the auto float switch and pump . The pump does go on , but bilge not draining . Something must be clogged . Is there anything obvious I should check before taking the pump out.?”

Check your hose connections. It may also take a minute of rattling if the pump is dry and needs to be primed. They quiet down once water is passing through.

“3 . Where does the bilge pump output hose go to ? Is there a port on the hull ? ( I’ve never seen it drain )”

Yes, to a through hull. Trace the hose. Mine exit at the transom.

“4. there is a switch in the head that says “bilge pump“ on it . Not sure what this is for . I don’t hear anything. Is there a separate pump for the shower bilge ?”

I have two diaphragm style electric bilge pumps mounted in my engine compartment. One is for the shower and the other is the ‘main pump’. Switched at the panel.

it took me a while to deduce that the “shower” bilge pump will only operate when the pressure water circuit is on. I don’t know if that is by design generally or a wiring idiosyncrasy of my particular boat.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
1. Natural to spill fuel when changing fuel filter. (But if you're paying, also natural to clean it up?)

2. If you have a submersible Rule pump they get airlocks. Hums, makes bubbles, no pumping. What kind of pump is it?

3. Trace the bilge pump output hose. It exits the boat somewhere aft. Look for a one-way valve which may be clogged (re #2). Often the bilge pump hose does not have a seacock and doesn;t share a seacock.

4. Sounds like you have a dedicated bilge for handheld shower water. That means a separate bilge pump, and perhaps a separate float switch and the related wiring. It might all be removed. Trace the wiring of the switch.

This stuff is theoretically in the manual (if there is a manual for the 33RH), but in the end we all really have to eyeball it, since previous owners have likely made a lot of revisions.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Comparison Information.
The Olson is a different hull, but most of the same guys probably constructed it...
Our stock bilge pumping scheme was/is two Jabsco chamber-type electric pumps, each with float switch, with hoses running aft to separate above water thruhulls. Both hoses have a high loop inside before descending to the thruhull.
They drain different sections of the bilge, and the pickup closest to the head is actually controlled by a standard Rule bilge pump switch in the head compartment.
From a PR standpoint this enhanced the idea that the head compartment integral shower was intended for showering. Not wanting to have soap scum and hair in the bilge, we have never showered in there.

Real Nice to have to separate pumping systems. Both are controlled by one of the DC breakers on the main panel.
I believe that the E-33 also has thruhulls under the aft turn of the hull for these pumping outlets.

There is another larger hull outlet for the manual bilge pump located in the cockpit.

Opinion: if a prior owner has installed a Rule centrifugal pump, remove it and install the Jabsco. I tried the Rule pump and found that it "air locked" easily and allowed back flooding. :(
 
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cdesopo

Member II
For #2, check the strainer (under the galley sink) for cracks. Replaced mine & it now pumps like a garden hose.
Re: #4, for the on, off, auto switch to operate, power up the bilge circuit. To use 'on' you have to hold it in this position. This is just for the mast bilge (this is where my shower drain goes). The main bilge is likely hard wired and doesn't need the breaker on.
 
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K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
Thanks all. Just back from a week away. The "main" bilge pump I have is indeed a Rule pump (appears to be 2000 model, but numbers are faded). The pump runs when I fill the bilge with water but no water gets pumped out. I just thought that this might be a float switch problem. Perhaps float switch is mounted too low and triggers pump before level is high enough to reach pump ? A member mentioned pumps that have integral water level sensors - does anyone have experience with these should I decide to replace it ?
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Rule submersibles have quirks. Many have integral float switches, or water sensors. Turn the pump upsidedown and it runs.

One quirk of some models is air lock. The pump hums and makes bubbles and looks like its working, but it's not. One solution is to turn it upside down and shake it, or to add water to the bilge. Yes, the idea of a non-self priming bilge pump seems crazy. I once thought this through, and although I;ve forgotten the details the phenomenon has to do with the model, year, sensor and installation. Extremely confusing and annoying. Why I switched to diaphragm pumps.

I have been told that one-way valves in the outflow hose are an issue. They're there to keep hose water from flooding back so you can have a drier bilge. That kills the prime. Also, one-way valves are not recommended because they easily clog, which stops the pump working while the owner is at home asleep.

ON one Hawai sail I thought the boat was sinking. The bilge filled up, with the pump running constantly. I could not see the outflow (which is under the counter). I tried everything--shaking, disconnecting, cleaning and worrying. I was convinced there must be a leak in the boat because how else to explain a bilge pump constantly running? Then, when the windward work passed and the boat was level again, downwind, the pump worked like a dream. I concluded that being heeled over, with bilge sloshing crazily, the Rule could not keep prime, and air locked.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
ON one Hawai sail I thought the boat was sinking.

that would have scared the daylights out of me... you don't want your life to depend on a cheap 100.00 pump continuously running for 2 weeks without fail. that was probably a relief when you found the problem was just that the pump was air locked.

as they have finished dredging my slip, I have to go to the marina tomorrow to return my boat to it's permanent slip. I will take pictures of the pump installation and post. I was only able to work on it a little bit yesterday. It seems the Rule pump sits in a little cradle that was screwed to the bottom of the boat in some way, so I was able to easily snap it out. I am not sure what a one-way valve looks like but it it's a little black disc-like thing in the line, that might be one. I'll post pictures. I think my problem might be float switch height relative to pump, but if I have to change it, maybe better to change the whole thing with a new diaphragm pump that has a built-in sensor ? If I go that route, I want to be sure I can test it as it's one of the thing on my checklist I do every time I'm at the boat. I do that check by just toggling the float switch manually to make sure I hear the pump.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
You say the float switch activates the pump, so you know they both work. Disconnect the ouput hose from the pump. Can you blow through it? Place the pump in a small pail of water. Will it pump water from its output port? Should be easy troubleshooting.

These small centrifugal pumps move a lot of water, but only once they are running up to speed with water moving through them. They don't do so well on startup, where they need to create the movement of water within the pump (priming). It doesn't take much back pressure in the output hose to prevent this priming process from occurring.

That is why check valves are problematic. While a primed pump might easily move water up, say, a 4-foot lift, the samp pump, at startup, might be completely unable to prime itself against the back pressure of 4 feet of water trapped behind a check valve.

Sure, diaphragm pumps avoid these problems, but they have to be located remotely, which requires changes to both wiring and plumbing, and might not rise to the level of a new boat owner's top priorities.

I replaced both my rule centrifugals with new ones, after replacing excess elbows, kinks, and valves in the output hoses. In my opinion, they work fine. Replacing them with diaphragm pumps is two or three years down the priority list for me.
 
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K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
Here is a photo of the “main” bilge compartment. It is a rule 2000. I just tested it again by pouring 5 gallons fresh water in . Float switch is indeed working , water level is over the level of the pump outflow . Pump goes on , but water level remains the same . I manually pump it out and float switch opens . Pump snaps out easy . What is the octagonal shaped thing on the outflow hose ? Is that a one way valve ?
 

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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
One (distant) guess is that it is a plugged check-valve.
Strictly IMHO, just one more reason to return the original Jabsco 37202-series positive displacement pump. Simplify the system; lower advertised flow rate but at least it will reliably meet its published performance standard.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
You say the float switch activates the pump, so you know they both work. Disconnect the ouput hose from the pump. Can you blow through it? Place the pump in a small pail of water. Will it pump water from its output port? Should be easy troubleshooting.

These small centrifugal pumps move a lot of water, but only once they are running up to speed with water moving through them. They don't do so well on startup, where they need to create the movement of water within the pump (priming). It doesn't take much back pressure in the output hose to prevent this priming process from occurring.

That is why check valves are problematic. While a primed pump might easily move water up, say, a 4-foot lift, the samp pump, at startup, might be completely unable to prime itself against the back pressure of 4 feet of water trapped behind a check valve.

Sure, diaphragm pumps avoid these problems, but they have to be located remotely, which requires changes to both wiring and plumbing, and might not rise to the level of a new boat owner's top priorities.

I replaced both my rule centrifugals with new ones, after replacing excess elbows, kinks, and valves in the output hoses. In my opinion, they work fine. Replacing them with diaphragm pumps is two or three years down the priority list for me.
[/QUOTE
The pump works work in a small bucket . I removed pump and connected the dock hose ( I bought a garden hose fitting for this purpose . ) to the pump outflow line . As you can see , water flows unobstructed through the line . The black fitting in my hand is a hose diameter reducer to adapt pump output diameter to narrow diameter bilge line . Now I’m really puzzled .. the pump seems to be airlocking but how ? There is no check valve in the system .
 

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K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
Yes, this does seem to be the problem. All indications are that it is air-locking. It’s still a bit of a mystery why it is air locking. the output hose is pretty straight with no significant bends, Perhaps the little rise of the hose to the output of the pump is enough to drain the output port so that it loses it’s prime. I’m kind of wondering if the pump ever worked ! You can manually move the float switch and it sounds like the pump is running, but until you put an inch or so of water in the bilge, you don’t know that the pump is on but not working. The previous owner always manually pumped out the small amount of water in the bilge so maybe he didn’t realize the pump would never do anything.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
One (distant) guess is that it is a plugged check-valve.
Strictly IMHO, just one more reason to return the original Jabsco 37202-series positive displacement pump. Simplify the system; lower advertised flow rate but at least it will reliably meet its published performance standard.
I‘m investigating the Jabsco. If I can’t get the existing pump to work, I’ll have to see what is involved in replumbing. I was hoping for a quick fix but that may not happen.
 

Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
If that's a Rule 2000 pump, it should be using a 1 1/8" discharge hose (thus the need for your reducer). 3/4" hose (what you have in the boat) has about 44% of the capacity of 1 1/8" hose. This 56% "blockage" may be what is keeping the pump from priming. I think the largest Rule pump that still uses a 3/4" hose is the Rule 800 (these are what I've installed in both my bilges).

Unless you want to go the route of installing a diaphragm pump, you might try plugging a Rule 800 in there. 800 gph is still many times better than a 2000 gph pump that moves nothing.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
If that's a Rule 2000 pump, it should be using a 1 1/8" discharge hose (thus the need for your reducer). 3/4" hose (what you have in the boat) has about 44% of the capacity of 1 1/8" hose. This 56% "blockage" may be what is keeping the pump from priming. I think the largest Rule pump that still uses a 3/4" hose is the Rule 800 (these are what I've installed in both my bilges).

Unless you want to go the route of installing a diaphragm pump, you might try plugging a Rule 800 in there. 800 gph is still many times better than a 2000 gph pump that moves nothing.
Yes, I was wondering about such a large reduction. The back pressure can;t be good for the motor. Do you have a check valve in the output ? A bit more upstream in the next compartment there is a fitting with an arrow and I am wondering if that might be a check valve . See photo. The other thing I noticed is that the pumps are mounted on what looks like 3/8” plywood blocks which is glued or siliconed to the hull. Removing the block and siliconing the rule pump mount directly to the hull would lower the pump and avoid the slight dip in the output house (which goes through the hole to the next compartment.
 

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Kenneth K

1985 32-3, Puget Sound
Blogs Author
Definitely looks like a check valve. I'd say the combination of a check valve and too small an output hose are probably the culprits in making your pump not work.

I installed a high quality brass Groco inline check valve when I first got the boat. The first time I tested it, it worked great. And, it eliminated the backflow from the 20 ft of bilge hose back into the bilge compartment. I though that was so cool I wanted to see it again. The second time (only 30 sec later) the pump wouldn't prime because it couldn't overcome the back pressure caused by the check valve (which was now holding back 20 feet of elevated water in the discharge hose). I took the check valve out that night and haven't used one since.

Yes, the lower you can place the pump in the bilge the better. I've seen people zip-tie pumps to the keel bolts. Or, if your bilge hose is fairly sturdy, you can mount the bilge hose to the bilge sidewall and use it to keep the pump in place--especially if it wedges the pump up against some keel bolts or a corner of the bilge.
 

K2MSmith

Sustaining Member
Definitely looks like a check valve. I'd say the combination of a check valve and too small an output hose are probably the culprits in making your pump not work.
Thanks Ken... I don;t have enough experience to know what a check valve looks like, but all the ones I googled looked bigger than this, so I just thought it was straight coupler. The giveaway is that it has an arrow on it (flow direction). I later found this one is made by ”whale”. I am a little nervous about removing it. I’m wondering if there is any pathway water can get back into the boat from the outflow. It exits the boat above the waterline so, maybe not. The outflow looks good from my hose test, so maybe next, I’ll try to just lower the pump so there is no “rise” where the hose goes through the port to the next compartment. I looked at the rule 800 but the case looks different and the output port is higher up than the rule 2000. Are you able to feed the hose through the bilge compartment without it bending too much ?
 
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