Bilge maintenance questions

[Christian Williams]

TAGF stands for "Tri-Axial Force Grid," the marketing name for the stiffness structure inserted into the hull and to which the stays and the furniture attaches. It's highly regarded, but does create complication for bilge drainage and conduit.

I don' see why you'd need a 1" or larger pump hose for a small electric bilge pump. They're just there to suck out rainwater.

We don't have a manual showing the differences of the 32-200 TAGF from the 32-3 (which is a near sistership and does have a manual available in Forum Resources). Need a 32-200 owner to comment.

 

[Loren Beach]

One bit of wisdom absorbed from working with a ship wright for the last few months on our boat is that for these systems, bilge water, electrical, engine hoses, etc..... it is only OK to 'jury rig' your way around the "mess" that you inherited from a prior owner when you are on vacation and just need a repair sufficient to get you home.
The rest of the time it is far better to plan and do a proper installation. Often this means throwing out something a prior owner (or 2 or 3 owners) kludged up. Sometimes you find that the factory install was not efficient or as well installed as it should have been.

And then, there is "entropy". Even a pretty good system is overdue for replacement after 30 years, and often after 20.
A surveyor or an experienced counterman at the industrial hose store will tell you this, and they may quote a shorter interval.

I have replaced most of the original vinyl corrugated bilge hose. Both of our OEM electric pumps were Jabsco 37202 series, and use 3/4" hose. They operate on an internal check valve principal, and only need a smooth bore hose going to the transom thruhull. And, we do have a higher loop of each hose inside for each thruhull to prevent back flooding.

Sometimes it's best to study the OEM systems with a fresh viewpoint. Ask questions here, and (Gasp!) ignore the internet for a while and read a book on the subject.
To further flog the deceased horse, if some prior owner has installed a centrifugal pump, like a Rule, replace it.
(Try a variation of the game where you toss bean bags at a target board with a hole in it and... pitch centrifugal bilge pumps at an open dumpster from about 100 feet!)
(Yeah, a bit tongue in cheek)

 

[goldenstate]

I have a new to me 32-200--1989 that has bilge pump issues. The cockpit manual pump is fine. My one manual pump works fine in the tiny space in the TAFG (what does that stand for?), but there are not many limber holes feeding it that I can see. The one automatic pump is an undersized Rule that (I think) someone routed the discharge to the galley sink drain just above water. I do not think this is a good idea, if it is even legal. Was this done at Ericson? Can I drill holes in the TAFG to run things? There is no apparent route I can see to run a 1" or larger hose to the aft discharge thru hull fitting. I could use some advice. This TAFG is a PITA.

Ray -

On my boat I have four bilge pumps.

1. The Whale Gusher Manual
2. The main bilge pump operated by panel switch. The unit is a diaphragm pump mounted in the engine compartment.
3. The shower bilge pump operated by a switch in the head. This will only operate when the pressure water circuit is on. The pump is a diaphragm mounted in the engine compartment.
4. An 'emergency' centrifugal pump mounted in the bilge.

#2 and #4 are in the bilge area just forward of the galley.
#3 is in a separate bilge catchment at the base of the companionway stairs.



Check for a diaphragm pump or two in your compartment. One of mine is visible just below the fuel filter in this picture:



This is a bit crude for humor by the standards of our forum, but when wind and waves are really bashing around, I like to think TAFG stands for "Triaxial As Fuck Grid." I would not drill any holes in it unless I really had do.

My bilges have little interconnecting tubes that link them, but imperfectly.

 

[Loren Beach]

Within reason, and not boring anything out too large, I think that you will find that the sides of the TAFG can stand some holes with zero compromise. It's like the holes in the web material of a an I-beam truss. EY installed limber holes with no worries.
They also put in limber holes thru each of the heavy duty "hat stringers" in our Olson bilge.

Another nice thing about the TAFG is that it also let EY build a rigid hull without *coring*. There are a lot of boats with balsa coring that have had tens of thousands of dollars spent to re-core their hulls, or have been thrown away because of that problem. When we were shopping for a large boat we made a decision early on to only consider hulls with no coring or at least only coring above the waterline.
Every type of construction has plusses and minuses, and you will avoid, forever, a huge $$$ problem because your hull is solid layup.

 

[Kenneth K]

Owners have reported differences between even the same boat models in regards to how the bilges are configured. In mine, every bilge compartment had holes (1 1/2" dia maybe) at the bottom, connecting it to every other bilge compartment. If done this way, the bilge(s) act like a traditional full-length bilge, and once water rises to a certain level, any pump will lower the water level in all the connected bilges.

Other owners have reported one or more bilge compartments that were sealed or plugged-off from the other sections. If configured this way, you have to get more creative about where you put your pumps. I always wondered how an isolated bilge section was ever supposed to catch water, other than water spilling over the floor-boards and filling it from above (which is essentially what happens to the bilge section just aft of the mast--it collects rainwater from the mast-step drain).

Ericson drilled lots of holes in the TAFG, both large and small.



I wouldn't hesitate drilling more after careful planning, HOWEVER, unless you've inspected the whole TAFG/bilge system under the floorboards, you might find you drilled needless holes where existing pathways or conduit already existed (photo from Christian Williams):

 

[Pete the Cat]

TAGF stands for "Tri-Axial Force Grid," the marketing name for the stiffness structure inserted into the hull and to which the stays and the furniture attaches. It's highly regarded, but does create complication for bilge drainage and conduit.

I don' see why you'd need a 1" or larger pump hose for a small electric bilge pump. They're just there to suck out rainwater.

We don't have a manual showing the differences of the 32-200 TAGF from the 32-3 (which is a near sistership and does have a manual available in Forum Resources). Need a 32-200 owner to comment.

View attachment 36499

TAGF stands for "Tri-Axial Force Grid," the marketing name for the stiffness structure inserted into the hull and to which the stays and the furniture attaches. It's highly regarded, but does create complication for bilge drainage and conduit.

I don' see why you'd need a 1" or larger pump hose for a small electric bilge pump. They're just there to suck out rainwater.

We don't have a manual showing the differences of the 32-200 TAGF from the 32-3 (which is a near sistership and does have a manual available in Forum Resources). Need a 32-200 owner to comment.

View attachment 36499

Thank you so much. I really appreciate the help. I am in huge learning mode on this boat. I have done a lot of boat work in my life, but I am completely ignorant of the Ericson build concepts and I bought a project boat.. I don't think I need more than a 1" hose, I am just trying to find a route for that- that will not be a hazard to the boat. I discern that the TFAG can be drilled in some places without weakening it, but there is really no direct route to the aft through hull fittings. I am ashamed of this boat right now, but I will post my project results on this 32-200 when I get through this. I swore I was not going to buy another project I just finished and sold a Folkboat and have rebuilt a Tartan 37 over 28 years and I really was hoping to find a boat in good condition close by. Couldn't, so here I am again. It's my Covid project. I am happy there are people here to help.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Ray -

On my boat I have four bilge pumps.

1. The Whale Gusher Manual
2. The main bilge pump operated by panel switch. The unit is a diaphragm pump mounted in the engine compartment.
3. The shower bilge pump operated by a switch in the head. This will only operate when the pressure water circuit is on. The pump is a diaphragm mounted in the engine compartment.
4. An 'emergency' centrifugal pump mounted in the bilge.

#2 and #4 are in the bilge area just forward of the galley.
#3 is in a separate bilge catchment at the base of the companionway stairs.

View attachment 36500

Check for a diaphragm pump or two in your compartment. One of mine is visible just below the fuel filter in this picture:

View attachment 36501

This is a bit crude for humor by the standards of our forum, but when wind and waves are really bashing around, I like to think TAFG stands for "Triaxial As Fuck Grid." I would not drill any holes in it unless I really had do.

My bilges have little interconnecting tubes that link them, but imperfectly.

Thanks. I wish I had asked this question and had this diagram a couple days ago. I figured this out after a lot of grief. The problem I have is with the routing of the hose for #4. The guy who worked on it last, plumbed it to a T off the galley sink and put a check valve in it. The base of the galley sink seems like it is just at the waterline, but this does not seem safe to me. What is the route for the hose off this emergency pump. Also, the electrical for this should come directly from the battery, I think, but he has it coming off the back of the panel. I am not sure what we did before we had these owner groups. Thanks so much for the pictures.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Within reason, and not boring anything out too large, I think that you will find that the sides of the TAFG can stand some holes with zero compromise. It's like the holes in the web material of a an I-beam truss. EY installed limber holes with no worries.
They also put in limber holes thru each of the heavy duty "hat stringers" in our Olson bilge.

Another nice thing about the TAFG is that it also let EY build a rigid hull without *coring*. There are a lot of boats with balsa coring that have had tens of thousands of dollars spent to re-core their hulls, or have been thrown away because of that problem. When we were shopping for a large boat we made a decision early on to only consider hulls with no coring or at least only coring above the waterline.
Every type of construction has plusses and minuses, and you will avoid, forever, a huge $$$ problem because your hull is solid layup.

Thanks. My other boat (I keep in Maine) is a Tartan 37 which is cored. I can see the advantages of the TAFG in avoiding some of the problems. However, I think each has its problems and advantages. I bought my Tartan as a project and stripped a lot of the glass off the hull (blisters--and it was a complete overreaction on my part) and found all the coring to be fine--though I expected issues. The cored hull is quiet and warm and routing new wire and hoses is a piece of cake with the only barriers being real bulkheads---and I am frankly finding this a nightmare in my new project and I appreciate the help and perspective of its value. I think the boatyards (I have worked in some and have disdain for the quality of work I see evolving in many--while the Internet is helping careful DIYers to do generally do better work than you can buy) have hyped blister and LPU paint jobs (My Tartan's blisters were the result of a "barrier coat" a reputable (?) San Francisco boatyard put over a wet hull). All the blisters were superficial and induced by their barrier coat as it turned out. I have seen a lot of these boatyard induced problems while working in the yards. The Ericson I am rehabbing is the product of owner neglect and boatyard malpractice. Forums like this are terrific and I thank you.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Owners have reported differences between even the same boat models in regards to how the bilges are configured. In mine, every bilge compartment had holes (1 1/2" dia maybe) at the bottom, connecting it to every other bilge compartment. If done this way, the bilge(s) act like a traditional full-length bilge, and once water rises to a certain level, any pump will lower the water level in all the connected bilges.

Other owners have reported one or more bilge compartments that were sealed or plugged-off from the other sections. If configured this way, you have to get more creative about where you put your pumps. I always wondered how an isolated bilge section was ever supposed to catch water, other than water spilling over the floor-boards and filling it from above (which is essentially what happens to the bilge section just aft of the mast--it collects rainwater from the mast-step drain).

Ericson drilled lots of holes in the TAFG, both large and small.

View attachment 36502

I wouldn't hesitate drilling more after careful planning, HOWEVER, unless you've inspected the whole TAFG/bilge system under the floorboards, you might find you drilled needless holes where existing pathways or conduit already existed (photo from Christian Williams):

View attachment 36503

 

[Pete the Cat]

It appears that one or two of my bilge compartments on this 32-200 are completely sealed off and have no limber holes. All that shocked me. There appears to be no route for the emergency bilge pump hose. This is a project boat that has not been neglected, but not used much, so it looks like it has not had much done to it since it came from the factory--just most everything does not work from neglect-- and the maintenance that has been done is iffy at best and malpractice in some places. Like electrical tape around a cockpit drain hose to fix it--exhaust waterlift muffler installed backwards, etc.. And that is just the start. I am grateful for this forum.

 

[goldenstate]

It appears that one or two of my bilge compartments on this 32-200 are completely sealed off and have no limber holes. All that shocked me. There appears to be no route for the emergency bilge pump hose. This is a project boat that has not been neglected, but not used much, so it looks like it has not had much done to it since it came from the factory--just most everything does not work from neglect-- and the maintenance that has been done is iffy at best and malpractice in some places. Like electrical tape around a cockpit drain hose to fix it--exhaust waterlift muffler installed backwards, etc.. And that is just the start. I am grateful for this forum.

My centrifugal pump sends water to an (apparently non-OEM) through-hull on the port side, well above the waterline. Here's a blog post documenting the through-hulls on my boat that shows where and how the hose exits. I suspect this was an after-market installation made in earnest by a previous owner.

I have not chased the wiring for this pump or the others. I know my panel has 'always on' power from some wires at the rear, so a routing to that location may not necessarily mean your centrifugal pump is switched, but of course, by turning off the relevant switches, you could test that part relatively easily.

Making sure my Whale Gusher cockpit pump worked well was one of my first projects, after changing the oil and fuel filters.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Thanks for that. I am thinking that is exactly the right, safe solution. I would probably think you need a loop much higher than the outlet, though, to prevent back flow when the boat is on its ear. I am on SF Bay and that is not an uncommon thing. Or do you have a check valve in there? I am still wondering how they came from the factory. Anyway thanks for your excellent pictures. This really helps.

 

[Christian Williams]

32-200 are completely sealed off and have no limber holes. All that shocked me.

You need to contemplate the TAGF grid. It provides access to bilge water with molded-in compartments linked together with limber holes. It is tabbed to the hull in hidden depressed areas without limber holes (yeah, they can collect water).

An inspection of the TAGF system requires that the floorboards be removed, a neck pain but useful after 30+ years, at least for owner satisfaction.

The structure captures water within itself (i.e., outside the "bilges"), despite the apparently sealed-off bilges. Holes can be drilled to drain the structure into the bilges, and join everything for free flow into the bilges. But then more water gets trapped by the free exchange.

Ericson put drain plugs in some boats to drain water trapped in the TAFG. But I think the idea was that new boats didn't have leaks from deck fittings, rub rails, ports, etc. so the issue was sorta moot. Now, three decades later, restoration boats have many small leaks.

The 32-3 manual shows the runs of all wiring and plumbing. The 32-200 is obviously different because the interior was greatly revised, but I'm sure the original design accommodated similar wiring and plumbing needs. Unfortunately, -200 owners have to figure them out.

 

[goldenstate]

Thanks for that. I am thinking that is exactly the right, safe solution. I would probably think you need a loop much higher than the outlet, though, to prevent back flow when the boat is on its ear. I am on SF Bay and that is not an uncommon thing. Or do you have a check valve in there? I am still wondering how they came from the factory. Anyway thanks for your excellent pictures. This really helps.

I have a check valve - the black plastic pictured below the exit point on the inboard picture through the settee access.