Bilge maintenance questions

[Kenneth K]

Knowing what you know now, I think that simply removing that check valve might fix your problem. There is no danger of flooding your boat because the exit through-hull is well above waterline. You will, however get the in-rush of the full volume of water that the check valve was holding back--probably less than a quart.

If pulling the check valve makes the system work, you could be okay. There is no way that pump is going to move 2000gph through a 3/4" hose, however. Whether or not pumping through such a small hose is bad for that motor--I dunno. I'd probably switch to a rule 800 for the long-term if you want to stay with Rule centrifugals.

Here's my setup:

.

I wouldn't worry about minor rises and sags in the line--the general lay of the line is from low to high as it moves up to the through-hull. The rises and sags shown in that video are pretty extreme.

 

[Rocinante33]

Thanks Ken... I don;t have enough experience to know what a check valve looks like, but all the ones I googled looked bigger than this, so I just thought it was straight coupler. The giveaway is that it has an arrow on it (flow direction). I later found this one is made by ”whale”. I am a little nervous about removing it. I’m wondering if there is any pathway water can get back into the boat from the outflow. It exits the boat above the waterline so, maybe not. The outflow looks good from my hose test, so maybe next, I’ll try to just lower the pump so there is no “rise” where the hose goes through the port to the next compartment. I looked at the rule 800 but the case looks different and the output port is higher up than the rule 2000. Are you able to feed the hose through the bilge compartment without it bending too much ?

Before proceeding how about a simple test of that pump? Unscrew the hose clamp and remove the hose from the output side of the pump. Jam a short piece of hose, even appropriately size garden hose, onto the pump. Lead that hose into a bucket on the salon sole. Repeat your test with a gallon or two of water Into the bilge. Does it pump into the bucket? If not, pour a quart or two of water back into the hose you just connected so as to prime the pump and repeat the test again. What happens now? Does it pump into the bucket? If not, trash the pump, I think.

 

[K2MSmith]

Before proceeding how about a simple test of that pump? Unscrew the hose clamp and remove the hose from the output side of the pump. Jam a short piece of hose, even appropriately size garden hose, onto the pump. Lead that hose into a bucket on the salon sole. Repeat your test with a gallon or two of water Into the bilge. Does it pump into the bucket? If not, pour a quart or two of water back into the hose you just connected so as to prime the pump and repeat the test again. What happens now? Does it pump into the bucket? If not, trash the pump, I think.

That's a good idea. I didn't have a length of 1 1/8" hose to do this test. What I did do was take out the pump and put it in a small bucket and hit it the float switch. It is definitely pumping. I can feel the water pressure on the outflow side. I only let it run a second though because it is a 2000 gph pump ! I also have a clear path on the outflow as I connected the dock hose to it and even with the faucet turned on very low, I can see a good stream of water existing the transom. I concluded that if pump works out of the system, but doesn't work in the system with a clear outflow, then it is not getting primed somewhow. (air lock).

What's a little confusing to me is that a pump will always be air locked when you first install it on a dry line. So does that mean that it will never work unless you assemble it with water in the line ?

 

[K2MSmith]

Comparison Information.
The Olson is a different hull, but most of the same guys probably constructed it...
Our stock bilge pumping scheme was/is two Jabsco chamber-type electric pumps, each with float switch, with hoses running aft to separate above water thruhulls. Both hoses have a high loop inside before descending to the thruhull.
They drain different sections of the bilge, and the pickup closest to the head is actually controlled by a standard Rule bilge pump switch in the head compartment.
From a PR standpoint this enhanced the idea that the head compartment integral shower was intended for showering. Not wanting to have soap scum and hair in the bilge, we have never showered in there.

Real Nice to have to separate pumping systems. Both are controlled by one of the DC breakers on the main panel.
I believe that the E-33 also has thruhulls under the aft turn of the hull for these pumping outlets.

There is another larger hull outlet for the manual bilge pump located in the cockpit.

Opinion: if a prior owner has installed a Rule centrifugal pump, remove it and install the Jabsco. I tried the Rule pump and found that it "air locked" easily and allowed back flooding.

Is the Jabsco pump submersible ? (See attached sheet for series you mentioned). I’ll also have to check dimensions. At first glance it looks like it will not fit in my narrow bilge because the pump motor is 90 degrees from the outflow.

 

[Loren Beach]

Not submersible. EY mounted both of ours several feet from the bilge and upwards a foot or two. Both are under access hatch/cover pieces on the top of our aft cabin berth. I imagine that every boat will be a bit different.
We have a strum box on each intake, fastened to the hull in the bilge, and that hose leads to the pump, thru a small screen filter. I check those filters every year and there's nothing accumulating in them.
I do try to keep "stuff" out the bilges.
Pictures of our bilge in my blog entry about installing new hoses.

 

[Christian Williams]

A selling point of diaphragm pumps is they are remote from the wet. You run a hose to the bilge and no issue with the keel bolts. On my model, Ericson mounted two in the engine compartment, which later owners removed and changed to submersibles. I mounted my new diaphragm pump under the port settee.

Also, I put a strainer on the bilge pickup end. It's really easy to check and clear. (There's a second strainer further up the line). Diaphragm pumps have two internal check valves, so it's important to keep junk out of them.

...

 

[K2MSmith]

A selling point of diaphragm pumps is they are remote from the wet. You run a hose to the bilge and no issue with the keel bolts. On my model, Ericson mounted two in the engine compartment, which later owners removed and changed to submersibles. I mounted my new diaphragm pump under the port settee.

Also, I put a strainer on the bilge pickup end. It's really easy to check and clear. (There's a second strainer further up the line). Diaphragm pumps have two internal check valves, so it's important to keep junk out of them.

View attachment 35330...View attachment 35329

Nice work ! I think I would like to do this but it is a much bigger project right now with rigging and other stuff going on. I think as a quick fix I will try to solve the air trapping issue and get the rule working again. Given my traveling back and forth, I feel very uneasy about a bilge pump not working (even though it doesn't appear to have ever worked !).

I have a similar pickup in the bilge compartment on the cabin (aft of the bilge where the pump is). I wonder where this goes ? Maybe this was the original bilge system ? There is also such a pickup in the head under the floorboard with a float switch. when I trigger the float switch, I don't hear anything (but perhaps the pump is under the cockpit ?) I wish the manual would have outlined this system but I am having to reverse engineer it. Also does the hand pump in the cockpit operate another pump is that just for the cockpit water or is it supposed to pump out the bilge ?

 

[Christian Williams]

Somebody should say about now that Rule submersible pumps are on many, perhaps most, sailboats, and they generally work fine. There are quirks, sure, but diaphragm pumps have quirks too (much more subject to bilge debris).

I recall telephoning Rule about this air lock/mystery/is my pump broken? stuff years ago, and getting a full, if complicated, rundown on various products, esp. the different water level sensors ("float switches"). It was important to tell them exactly which pump you owned, since many are similar. I would do that again if the issue is intermittent. I sense they get these questions a lot.

 

[K2MSmith]

More Bilge adventures today . The pump is out. Bilge is dry . I’m not liking the crud on the keel bolt washers . It does appear to come off ( any suggestions on a solvent to clean it ? I really don’t like that a block of wood was glued to hull and used to mount the pump ( as well as float switch ) I’m just wondering if this is rotting (?) and putting debris around the bolts ? At any rate , I think the quick fix for now will be to wire tie the plastic rule pump mount directly to the bolts ( or maybe 1 1/8 hose through bulkhead will keep it in place ) . Also don’t like the fact that the flow was reduced to 3/4 . I’m thinking of just replacing with a rule 800 which has a 3/4” out next week .

 

[Loren Beach]

The hand pump in the cockpit combing is for a larger hose with a strum box somewhere in your main bilge. At this age the pump check valves likely need replacing and the hose run replaced also.
See my blog entry for some more trivia regarding this.

O34 - New Bilge Hose, April 2016

This year I replaced the cockpit manual bilge pump. I thought I could rebuild the old one, but the inside check valves were secured by ss screws into the alum. housing and would not budge. The hose had also been in there since the boat was built...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[Christian Williams]

Pretty standard bolt crud. I use household cleaner and a stainless wire brush. We're supposed to keep stainless steel in the air, so it can oxidize protectively, which means no paint, just realistically clean. I doubt the wooden block you mention is a problem, unless it really is rotting apart.

Regarding bilge outflow ratings: The pump is there to pump rainwater out, and maybe the inevitable bilge water that appears in heavy
weather. No typical bilge pump installation can prevent sinking, and isn;t designed to. Basically they;re there to keep the water level in the bilge down as close to zero as possible (zero means a sponge, or Loren's famous turkey baster).

So I think outflow ratings--well, you see where the argument is going....the pump should reliably pee out a stream and that's about it.

 

[K2MSmith]

Got it back together and eliminated the check valve , replaced what looked like a fuel line hose with the recommended bilge hose . Replaced all the hose clamps with new stainless ones ( 3.69 a piece) . Poured a few pails of Fresh water into the bilge and guess what ? Float switch turns on pump but it doesn’t pump water . I kind of expected that because if I assembled everything dry , the pump will still be air locked . So , I took off output hose and let the hose fill with water , reassembled ( with pump still running ) and now it works . Tested by throwing more buckets in , bilge drains and water gets pumped out of the transom .
Doesn’t seem like a good way to work if It requires the output hose to always have standing water in it to work - don’t like . I‘Kk put the diaphragm pumps on my list for a future project.
Btw, see forward bilge compartment. The “gunk” looks like wet leaves ( but soft odorless consistency) . Not sure where it is coming from . I’m wondering if it was algae in the bulkhead ports that was recently killed by a bit of diesel fuel spilled in when engine was serviced?

 

[markvone]

I don't like the block of wood either. It's submerged in water pretty much all the time and it raises the pump UP when you want it further DOWN to minimize the residual water level to minimize your basting time. I'd chisel that block out and screw the pump base/strainer directly into the bilge surface which is how my shower drain pump is mounted in the forward most bilge section. I've probably got your attention but you don't need six inch lag bolts, just two 1/2 inch long pan heads to hold the strainer/base in place. The bilge floor/keel stub is 3-4 inches thick.

My Turn for the Keel Drop

After reading all of the posts of RT's keel drop, I was dreading this, fearing it would be the worst. I went down last week to build the frame around the keel, as RT did. We went down today. The travel lift was in place. They lifted her up about 2" and the keel didn't move. I was...

ericsonyachts.org

Or you can epoxy the base/strainer to the bilge floor if drilling holes in the bottom of your boat freaks you out. You will just have to chisel it out if you remove it.

One of the benefits of the remote pumps is they don't have to mount on the bilge floor and the pickups don't have to be mounted.

If you do eventually switch to a remote diaphragm for general bilge water management, I suggest you keep your current pump for extra pumping capacity during an "Oh My" moment - IF you can route the full size hose from the bilge to a new thru hull. I added a large Rule 3700 and switch on a G10 stand above the normal bilge water level. It will only come on if water level overwhelms the diaphragm pump. I found a path to route the 1 1/2 inch hose (the hardest part) and added a new thru hull in the stern. The base strainer is bolted to the stand which is epoxied to the bilge floor.

The strainer below the pump is for the manual Whale Gusher in the cockpit. My diaphragm pump pickup is in the next bilge section forward and the shower submersible pump is in the forward bilge section, isolated for just the shower drain. The Whale Gusher hose (stbd) and the shower pump hose (port) run in the factory locations through the TAFG to the stern. I had to find a new routing path for the 3/4 inch diaphragm pump hose and the 1 1/2 in hose for the Rule 3700.

Mark

 

[1911tex]

Mark said: '' The strainer below the pump is for the manual Whale Gusher in the cockpit. My diaphragm pump pickup is in the next bilge section forward and the shower submersible pump is in the forward bilge section, isolated for just the shower drain. The Whale Gusher hose (stbd) and the shower pump hose (port) run in the factory locations through the TAFG to the stern."

We do not use the shower as a shower....the curtain is drawn and it is used for storage; therefore, have no need for the shower submersible pump in the forward bilge section, only in the other bilge section...question..how to I cut off the shower drain so the whale gusher in the cockpit will only pull from the second forward bilge area? The pump sucks air from the shower drain and takes forever to pick up water from the other bilge drain.

 

[Christian Williams]

On my boats the Whale hose has been independent of other systems, and you could route the pickup end to the bilge compartment of choice. What's your manual say?

 

[1911tex]

On my boats the Whale hose has been independent of other systems, and you could route the pickup end to the bilge compartment of choice. What's your manual say?

Christian: Your manual picture is clearer than mine, and for all practical purposes mine is illegible...thank you! From your manual picture, the cockpit whale pump only pumps from the shower bilge? What drains the other bilge diaphragm suction pump just behind the shower bilge? Or maybe I cannot read it properly?

View attachment 35345

 

[markvone]

Tex,

The odds of your boat matching the diagram after 35 years are pretty small. You really have to follow the hose run for each pump to see where it goes and investigate if bilge limber holes have been added or plugged by a PO. Christian's E38 pump diagram looks like the stock E36RH diagram and shows the Whale Gusher in the cockpit and the "standard" bilge pump running pickups to the "main" bilge section. The shower bilge pump pickup is shown in a forward bilge section. On the E36RH, and I suspect originally on all the bigger Ericsons with the shower forward, the shower bilge section was isolated from the rest of the "main" bilge. Common problems with the little used Gusher in the cockpit are holes in the hose and worn out rubber seals and diaphragm in the pump which are probably original. One of my first projects was to replace the original 30 year old Gusher hose. My pump actually worked fine....but now that I think about it, I haven't tried it in nearly 10 years!

Below is a diagram of my bilge and bilge pump/hose layout. I added the Rule 3700 for emergency pumping (light blue) and the Jabsco 37202 diaphragm "standard" pump (pink), both with completely new hose routing to the stern. A PO added the submersible shower pump in bilge #1 (orange) which uses the factory hose path because one of the two factory engine compartment pumps (originally for the shower) had been re-purposed as a second "standard" pump in the main bilge to double pumping capacity. Both of the two engine compartment (factory?) Jabsco water puppy rotary pumps eventually failed.

Mark

 

[1911tex]

Tex,

The odds of your boat matching the diagram after 35 years are pretty small. You really have to follow the hose run for each pump to see where it goes and investigate if bilge limber holes have been added or plugged by a PO. Christian's E38 pump diagram looks like the stock E36RH diagram and shows the Whale Gusher in the cockpit and the "standard" bilge pump running pickups to the "main" bilge section. The shower bilge pump pickup is shown in a forward bilge section. On the E36RH, and I suspect originally on all the bigger Ericsons with the shower forward, the shower bilge section was isolated from the rest of the "main" bilge. Common problems with the little used Gusher in the cockpit are holes in the hose and worn out rubber seals and diaphragm in the pump which are probably original. One of my first projects was to replace the original 30 year old Gusher hose. My pump actually worked fine....but now that I think about it, I haven't tried it in nearly 10 years!

Below is a diagram of my bilge and bilge pump/hose layout. I added the Rule 3700 for emergency pumping (light blue) and the Jabsco 37202 diaphragm "standard" pump (pink), both with completely new hose routing to the stern. A PO added the submersible shower pump in bilge #1 (orange) which uses the factory hose path because one of the two factory engine compartment pumps (originally for the shower) had been re-purposed as a second "standard" pump in the main bilge to double pumping capacity. Both of the two engine compartment (factory?) Jabsco water puppy rotary pumps eventually failed.

Mark

View attachment 35347

Thank you Mark...I printed your amazing diagram and will take it to the boat this weekend....will use it as a guide!

 

[EYonMagathy]

On my boats the Whale hose has been independent of other systems, and you could route the pickup end to the bilge compartment of choice. What's your manual say?

View attachment 35345

a few weeks late, but here is the owners manual diagram for an EY 28+....

 

[Pete the Cat]

Tex,

The odds of your boat matching the diagram after 35 years are pretty small. You really have to follow the hose run for each pump to see where it goes and investigate if bilge limber holes have been added or plugged by a PO. Christian's E38 pump diagram looks like the stock E36RH diagram and shows the Whale Gusher in the cockpit and the "standard" bilge pump running pickups to the "main" bilge section. The shower bilge pump pickup is shown in a forward bilge section. On the E36RH, and I suspect originally on all the bigger Ericsons with the shower forward, the shower bilge section was isolated from the rest of the "main" bilge. Common problems with the little used Gusher in the cockpit are holes in the hose and worn out rubber seals and diaphragm in the pump which are probably original. One of my first projects was to replace the original 30 year old Gusher hose. My pump actually worked fine....but now that I think about it, I haven't tried it in nearly 10 years!

Below is a diagram of my bilge and bilge pump/hose layout. I added the Rule 3700 for emergency pumping (light blue) and the Jabsco 37202 diaphragm "standard" pump (pink), both with completely new hose routing to the stern. A PO added the submersible shower pump in bilge #1 (orange) which uses the factory hose path because one of the two factory engine compartment pumps (originally for the shower) had been re-purposed as a second "standard" pump in the main bilge to double pumping capacity. Both of the two engine compartment (factory?) Jabsco water puppy rotary pumps eventually failed.

Mark

View attachment 35347

I have a new to me 32-200--1989 that has bilge pump issues. The cockpit manual pump is fine. My one manual pump works fine in the tiny space in the TAFG (what does that stand for?), but there are not many limber holes feeding it that I can see. The one automatic pump is an undersized Rule that (I think) someone routed the discharge to the galley sink drain just above water. I do not think this is a good idea, if it is even legal. Was this done at Ericson? Can I drill holes in the TAFG to run things? There is no apparent route I can see to run a 1" or larger hose to the aft discharge thru hull fitting. I could use some advice. This TAFG is a PITA.