Bow cleats for E35-2

DaveL

New Member
Hi folks, I'm new to this forum and relatively new to sailing. I'm fixing up a 1970 E35-2 that currently has no bow cleats. What size and make do you recommend and where could I get them for a reasonable price? (I live in San Diego)
Thanks ahead of time for any answers!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I would suggest a couple of 10" cleats, design, material, and cost up to you.
That size is a good fit for the size dock and anchor line that a boat of your displacement will use, IMHO.
Seal the holes in the deck and put a generous backing plate under each.
I upsized to that size and it works well. Link (one of two links applicable): https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/new-deck-mooring-cleats.525/
 

garryh

Member III
some PO must have removed them... do you see any repair marks in the fiberglass..? highly unlikely the boat came from the factory with no bow cleats. Why on earth would someone do that..? unless part of a project to install a samson post and never got around to it
 

nquigley

Member III
Have a look at the last bow pic of S/V Cinderella in this thread:
... there's a single cleat in the center ...
 

steven

Member III
Here is a picture of the cleats on Indigo E35-2 1976.

If you are installing from scratch, I would consider a little larger cleat so both a bow line and a spring line more easily overlay at the same time (I may up-size mine when I get around to it). Also, a bit larger would better handle a heavy anchor rode.

Underneath they are inside the chain locker and hard to get to, so that may affect your location.

Strongly suggest you back them with a ss or FR4 plate (the factory only used washers).

--Steve


1610118302765.jpeg
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Also If you thread a dock line spliced eye through the center of your cleat and loop it over the horns of the cleat, I would highly recommend an open center design which will allow you to thread the eye through MUCH faster and easier than the tiny center on the typical sailboat cleat like most Ericsons were delivered with. Here's what I will be changing too:


None of my dock lines share a cleat so 8 inch works for me. Longer 10 inch cleats give you more options if you have the room to mount them.
Back them up with nice large 1/4 G10 plates.

Mark
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Hi Mark,
That's the "Herreshoff style" I decided against just 'cause it would not look appropriate on the Olson. Subjective... ah yup. :)
I would still recommend a 10" cleat size.
 
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garryh

Member III
just took a quick look at your link above Loren to your installation... seems to me quite shocking the builders would use two bolt bases for the main cleats on a boat that large. Nowhere near substantial.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
just took a quick look at your link above Loren to your installation... seems to me quite shocking the builders would use two bolt bases for the main cleats on a boat that large. Nowhere near substantial.
Our boat displaces 10.6K, and the published displacement for the 35-2 is closer to 12K. So while there is certainly a point of diminishing return when spec-ing out these parts, I suspect that our factory aluminum backing plates, under the deck layup that they used was sufficient. Probably.
As pictured in my blog, I did upsize the new G10 backers just to add some bearing area. I had no doubt about the OEM stuff, but did want the whole assembly to better match up with the sizing of the 10" cleat base.

I do not want to make light of your comment, like saying that one person's shock is another person's meh.... because it's really more of the bell-shaped-curve of stresses. And we all want to do what lets us sleep OK when at anchor.

Also, if you look at production boats from the late 60's to a decade later, and then to another decade later, EY was always gearing up their boats better than any the "lower end" builders. That said, everyone was continually improving their standards. Well, everyone except some builders of really cheap-a__ boats, who shall not be named here. :(

Heck, about 15 years ago we had an old - late 60's- Coronado 25 in our moorage that had one of its original pot metal cleats broken right off due to a large wake rolling thru -- and no other boats were affected.

More anecdotal tales.... there is a 40-something racer/cruiser sloop that used to moor down the road from me that was cruising and racing down in Mexico a decade ago. and had an aft turning block tear right up and out of the deck. Block, riser, deck, backing plate.... and all! Left about a square foot hole in the deck.
No one was in the bight of the sheet, so no injuries. With enough force, anything can give way.
So, strictly IMHO, we all just engineer our boats for the last 5% of stress, or 3%, or 2%, or.............

Like my model, yours was designed & built for racing in the open ocean, 24/7. Good starting point for any upgrades that give you even more confidence.

Sidebar: I wish we were not separated by geography, pandemics , and the cost of air travel, 'cause I would love to see your boat. :)
Coincidence: our previous boat was built in St Catherines.

Cheers,
Loren
 

DaveL

New Member
some PO must have removed them... do you see any repair marks in the fiberglass..? highly unlikely the boat came from the factory with no bow cleats. Why on earth would someone do that..? unless part of a project to install a samson post and never got around to it
The PO removed them to do deck repairs and install a capstan. He never got around to replacing them. Old ones missing.
 

DaveL

New Member
Also If you thread a dock line spliced eye through the center of your cleat and loop it over the horns of the cleat, I would highly recommend an open center design which will allow you to thread the eye through MUCH faster and easier than the tiny center on the typical sailboat cleat like most Ericsons were delivered with. Here's what I will be changing too:


None of my dock lines share a cleat so 8 inch works for me. Longer 10 inch cleats give you more options if you have the room to mount them.
Back them up with nice large 1/4 G10 plates.

Mark
What an amazingly helpful comment! THANK YOU
 

DaveL

New Member
Here is a picture of the cleats on Indigo E35-2 1976.

If you are installing from scratch, I would consider a little larger cleat so both a bow line and a spring line more easily overlay at the same time (I may up-size mine when I get around to it). Also, a bit larger would better handle a heavy anchor rode.

Underneath they are inside the chain locker and hard to get to, so that may affect your location.

Strongly suggest you back them with a ss or FR4 plate (the factory only used washers).

--Steve


View attachment 36734
Super helpful, thanks! Those guides look funny, they are so far outboard... one of the screws looks like it goes into the deck joint. Is that how Ericson originally mounted the guides, or is that a mod by you or a PO?
 

garryh

Member III
"our previous boat was built in St Catharines"
Loren... I believe you had a Niagara 26. The Niagara is a lovely looking boat and very solid construction... the Niagara 35 is very high on my wishlist.
I have a friend of the female persuasion in St Catharines so go there often, a very pretty town. By another coincidence, my first boat was a C&C 25 built just a few miles up the highway in Niagara-on-the -Lake.
Right now my boat is not visitable, still in destruction mode... really wanted this last Spring to start the reconstruction but could not get into the marina with covid and once it was open, it was too hot to do extensive fiberglass work. It gets up over a hundred degrees under the tarp on a sunny day! However, we could definitely sit in the cockpit and have a beer or two and try to identify parts : )
Re the cleats discussion, I look at a lot of boats (when not working on mine I am walking the docks with glass of wine looking at boats and fittings) and have done significant work on several and taken quite a few apart... I have never ever seen two-bolt mooring cleats on anything but a dinghy. Shocked may be an overstatement but certainly very surprised! My thought is that they must be 'adequate' or they would not be installed... but certainly far from substantial (kinda like my 3/4" prop shaft : ) The forces on a cleat are 'mostly' in sheer, but there is also some elements of tension and torsion due to the various forces involved and a four-bolt footprint will certainly resist these forces much more readily than a two-bolt footprint. And it would be possibly a disaster waiting to happen if there were a situation in which you have to be towed in difficult conditions with the towline secured on a two-bolt cleat.
There was a discussion on a previous thread recently about winch mounting... again, the forces are mostly sheer, but there are also some tension (lifting) forces and especially on the aft bolts. My cabin top winches were mounted through (now soaked) core with only tiny 1/4" washers under the nuts. The aft most nuts were visibly pulled up into the exposed cabin overhead..
Speaking of unusual forces on cleats, this is how my dockmate had tied off until I explained the 'levering' action (ie. tension) he was placing on his cleats; pic 2 the new improved version.
 

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garryh

Member III
and I also commend you on the detail in your installation blogs. I would like to do this with my deckwork and bulkhead installation, but when covered with resin and in a hurry, not sure how to get ongoing photos. One needs a dedicated photographer, seems to me!
 

garryh

Member III
"Those guides look funny, they are so far outboard"
yes, I actually wondered myself when I first looked at that photo... looked like the rear bolt of the chock had come loose. Now wondering if it is a PO mod to reduce the angle of the dockline through the chock into the cleat.
 

steven

Member III
Far outboard chocks are standard. But not as dramatically outboard as you are seeing in the picture.
The one you are looking at has the aft end ripped through the gunl sideways
(due to being used incorrectly as a cleat, not a guide, by a friendly boat yard).
Have since repaired.

You want the chock to guide the line at the correct angle to the cleat.
The cleat does most of the holding work.
 

steven

Member III
Raises an interesting point.

On the stern of the E35-2, the chock and cleat are not oriented correctly to each other. They really didn't have much room to work with there. So the lead through the chock leads the line parallel to the cleat, instead of desired around 45deg.
 
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