I'm inquiring about a older E35 for sale and have not seen it yet. Broker tells me a partial survey reveals some of the bulkheads have become "delaminated". Would this be an indication of the interior having been submurged for some length of time? Could this have happened because of climate, storage, humidity, neglect? Have not talked with the surveyor yet, but would like someone to clue me in on the severity of this problem. Can you tell me if this is a critical fault, a correctable fault, or even a minor fault. As I said, I don't know the severity of the problem, but would like some tips on the questions I should pose to the surveyor and owner. TIA Brad Stafford
bulkhead delamination
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>>Would this be an indication of the interior having been submurged for some length of time? >>
Usually not, but still possible. Chainplate leaks are the usual reason.
>>Can you tell me if this is a critical fault, a correctable fault, or even a minor fault. As I said, I don't know the severity of the problem, but would like some tips on the questions I should pose to the surveyor and owner.>>
It is probably serious or the broker would not have mentioned -- maybe to save you dissapointment when you see it.
A good survey will answer your questions -- and do not stint on the survey. Sweat equity on a fixer-upper can get you into a big boat, but be darn sure you want to indulge in major recontruction while everyone else is out sailing...
Loren
Usually not, but still possible. Chainplate leaks are the usual reason.
>>Can you tell me if this is a critical fault, a correctable fault, or even a minor fault. As I said, I don't know the severity of the problem, but would like some tips on the questions I should pose to the surveyor and owner.>>
It is probably serious or the broker would not have mentioned -- maybe to save you dissapointment when you see it.
A good survey will answer your questions -- and do not stint on the survey. Sweat equity on a fixer-upper can get you into a big boat, but be darn sure you want to indulge in major recontruction while everyone else is out sailing...
Loren
Here-Here!
I second that! My boat has fried teak veneer around the forward ports and from the dorade box on top (common issue with the 35s) – and pretty much pooh-poohed it; not worrying about what it would take to replace it. I was very upbeat about doing major amounts of overhauling – and now, after having replaced the sanitation system, dodger, bottom paint, and a bunch of other stuff – I can tell you it’s not cheap – at all. The bad teak is still there - and I hate it.
You need to set a limit (do it away from the boat) for the amount /cost of the work you’re willing to do. My boat still looks like a workshop inside – and I’ve had it for ten months now – simply because I totally under estimated the amount of time it would take to do the things I wanted to it (I won’t even mention the costs – which have far exceeded what I initially expected).
Set a limit – then get realistic estimates from people who know what they’re talking about. The very first time you catch yourself daydreaming about sailing on that boat – pull back.
On a scale of 1-5 – I would guess that blowing out bulkheads and tabbing in new ones rates right up there with ripping out your cabin sole, etc (a 3 or 4; doable – but a long, hard dirty road). If the PO allowed that kind of damage to occur – you have to ask yourself where else he blew it as well.
Loren’s advice is good – get the boat surveyed – buy some books on boat renovation (Casey has a section on putting in bulkheads), and ask yourself if it’s something you really want to do. Be ready to blow $1000 in order to avoid a bigger mistake later. If you’re still not sure – come on up to Tacoma this winter – and you can help me rip out the teak from my boat!
//sse
I second that! My boat has fried teak veneer around the forward ports and from the dorade box on top (common issue with the 35s) – and pretty much pooh-poohed it; not worrying about what it would take to replace it. I was very upbeat about doing major amounts of overhauling – and now, after having replaced the sanitation system, dodger, bottom paint, and a bunch of other stuff – I can tell you it’s not cheap – at all. The bad teak is still there - and I hate it.
You need to set a limit (do it away from the boat) for the amount /cost of the work you’re willing to do. My boat still looks like a workshop inside – and I’ve had it for ten months now – simply because I totally under estimated the amount of time it would take to do the things I wanted to it (I won’t even mention the costs – which have far exceeded what I initially expected).
Set a limit – then get realistic estimates from people who know what they’re talking about. The very first time you catch yourself daydreaming about sailing on that boat – pull back.
On a scale of 1-5 – I would guess that blowing out bulkheads and tabbing in new ones rates right up there with ripping out your cabin sole, etc (a 3 or 4; doable – but a long, hard dirty road). If the PO allowed that kind of damage to occur – you have to ask yourself where else he blew it as well.
Loren’s advice is good – get the boat surveyed – buy some books on boat renovation (Casey has a section on putting in bulkheads), and ask yourself if it’s something you really want to do. Be ready to blow $1000 in order to avoid a bigger mistake later. If you’re still not sure – come on up to Tacoma this winter – and you can help me rip out the teak from my boat!
//sse
Bill Robbins
Member II
As previously stated, the most likely cause of a rotting bulkhead is water seeping in from the chain plates.
I recently replaced the main bulkhead (btw head and seating) in my 1970 E-35.
The bulkhead had rotted away at the chain plate and along the bottom where the shower sole is. I could stick my finger through the wood!
It is difficult to find the rotted areas because it is difficult to see the mid chainplates. These, which secure the mid and upper stays, are covered by "nicely varnished pieces of mahogany." ARG!!!
On the port side you can look at one side of the bulkhead from inside the head cabinet. You will get an idea how bad the rot is. Use an ice pick and push into the wood. Also, near where the bolts are that secure the plate to the bulkhead, you will notice that the bulkhead itself is "minimally" glassed in. This is, I think, A big flaw in design. The glass does not even cover enough of the bulkhead for the chain plate bolts to grab both wood and fiberglass. In fact the whole bulkhead was "tacked in" with fiberglass and not continuously glassed in.
On the Starboard side It is even harder to reach up and feal the back side of the chain plate bulkhead area. You have to reach up like a contortionist, through a dead space located above the "box" where your feet would be when you were lying in the stb. bunk. Then use the ice pick to probe around. At this point I just ripped out the "nicely varnished" wood cover. I did find some delamination here. Not lots of punky wood that your finger could go through. I plan to do a fix to this area soon. I will soak with Smiths penetrating epoxy (CPES) and then glass over the area. This should work well and be secure. I think this job will take about 8-15 hours.
Make sure to check the forward lowers too. They secure to the sides of the lockers in the head and stb. hanging locker. I have a bit of delamination here too.
As for the main bulkhead that I replaced. I hauled out at a great boat yard that could do the job if I had problems and would answer my questions (I had lots.) Svendsons in Alameda California.
The job went like this:
Pulled mast, and hauled boat out of water.
Dismantling of bulkhead: Took One full day (8am-7pm)
All tongue and groove siding out
seating against bulkhead out,
old bulkhead
compression post
Head cabinetry
Surface preparation (one full day)
grinding and chipping
cleaning up mess
Fabrication (Two and a half days)
templates
wood prep
Thinking a bunch (all night)
Fiberglass in bulkhead (One full day)
I paid the fiberglass guy at the yard to help me
with this step. I learned a bunch and the 2.5 hours
he helped was worth the $160
Assemble things back together.(One day)
compression post
fasteners
install chain plate
Big note: I still have to put back the seating area.
I plan to redesign it with more storage, new table
folding down from bulkhead, and sleeping area. Big
Job!!!
As mentioned earlier, do you really want to do this, or go sailing? I would rather be sailing a bit more than I am right now. But, I knew this boat had problems when I purchased it "salvaged" after a fire broke out inside. I paid little money for it and I was able to start sailing it with minimal work initially. Now that I am married and have children, safety concerns and cosmetics are beginning to become more important. I have put in a new engine, new full set of sails, dodger, and soon to come all new cushions. I am now wandering how much time and effort to put into this "salvaged boat." Perhaps selling it and buying something more suitable would be best. Ask yourself carefully ,(Off the boat), what you want to do with it right now, and in the future, also, what kind of maintenance you want. Good luck and let us know what comes from your visit to the boat.
I recently replaced the main bulkhead (btw head and seating) in my 1970 E-35.
The bulkhead had rotted away at the chain plate and along the bottom where the shower sole is. I could stick my finger through the wood!
It is difficult to find the rotted areas because it is difficult to see the mid chainplates. These, which secure the mid and upper stays, are covered by "nicely varnished pieces of mahogany." ARG!!!
On the port side you can look at one side of the bulkhead from inside the head cabinet. You will get an idea how bad the rot is. Use an ice pick and push into the wood. Also, near where the bolts are that secure the plate to the bulkhead, you will notice that the bulkhead itself is "minimally" glassed in. This is, I think, A big flaw in design. The glass does not even cover enough of the bulkhead for the chain plate bolts to grab both wood and fiberglass. In fact the whole bulkhead was "tacked in" with fiberglass and not continuously glassed in.
On the Starboard side It is even harder to reach up and feal the back side of the chain plate bulkhead area. You have to reach up like a contortionist, through a dead space located above the "box" where your feet would be when you were lying in the stb. bunk. Then use the ice pick to probe around. At this point I just ripped out the "nicely varnished" wood cover. I did find some delamination here. Not lots of punky wood that your finger could go through. I plan to do a fix to this area soon. I will soak with Smiths penetrating epoxy (CPES) and then glass over the area. This should work well and be secure. I think this job will take about 8-15 hours.
Make sure to check the forward lowers too. They secure to the sides of the lockers in the head and stb. hanging locker. I have a bit of delamination here too.
As for the main bulkhead that I replaced. I hauled out at a great boat yard that could do the job if I had problems and would answer my questions (I had lots.) Svendsons in Alameda California.
The job went like this:
Pulled mast, and hauled boat out of water.
Dismantling of bulkhead: Took One full day (8am-7pm)
All tongue and groove siding out
seating against bulkhead out,
old bulkhead
compression post
Head cabinetry
Surface preparation (one full day)
grinding and chipping
cleaning up mess
Fabrication (Two and a half days)
templates
wood prep
Thinking a bunch (all night)
Fiberglass in bulkhead (One full day)
I paid the fiberglass guy at the yard to help me
with this step. I learned a bunch and the 2.5 hours
he helped was worth the $160
Assemble things back together.(One day)
compression post
fasteners
install chain plate
Big note: I still have to put back the seating area.
I plan to redesign it with more storage, new table
folding down from bulkhead, and sleeping area. Big
Job!!!
As mentioned earlier, do you really want to do this, or go sailing? I would rather be sailing a bit more than I am right now. But, I knew this boat had problems when I purchased it "salvaged" after a fire broke out inside. I paid little money for it and I was able to start sailing it with minimal work initially. Now that I am married and have children, safety concerns and cosmetics are beginning to become more important. I have put in a new engine, new full set of sails, dodger, and soon to come all new cushions. I am now wandering how much time and effort to put into this "salvaged boat." Perhaps selling it and buying something more suitable would be best. Ask yourself carefully ,(Off the boat), what you want to do with it right now, and in the future, also, what kind of maintenance you want. Good luck and let us know what comes from your visit to the boat.
gareth harris
Sustaining Member
Agree entirely with above. Delamination is followed shortly by major structural problems. I had both main bulkheads replaced by a carpenter, cost $2500 for two sheets mahogony and labour. The new bulkheads eliminate the bookshelf which makes them stronger, and much more solid fibreglassing to the hull. The lower shrouds have delamination but the structure is sound enough to hold tension.
I have learned a lot of useful knowledge about boats from working on mine, but at a price of having very little time for anything else. Figure how much work is immediately necessary, and if it more than one or two major projects, and you work full time, think about what it will do to your social life.
Gareth
I have learned a lot of useful knowledge about boats from working on mine, but at a price of having very little time for anything else. Figure how much work is immediately necessary, and if it more than one or two major projects, and you work full time, think about what it will do to your social life.
Gareth