Considering going Electric

[saphira36]

Hi all, wife and I are proud new owners of an Ericson 36 here. We picked her up with a non-working engine (Universal M-30/5424). We have gotten the engine to turn over and almost start but before we got the air purged from the fuel lines (replaced filters first thing) noticed that the exhaust elbow was almost rusted through. No problem, hopped on Westerbeke's site ordered gaskets, elbow, flange, etc. and it'll be here... late May... maybe.

The price we got her for reflected a non-working engine so we're not concerned, but not being able to get parts IS concerning. This is just the first of it. If anything happens to the exhaust manifold for instance then it's game over (unless we pay who-knows-how-much for a custom build manifold).

So really a re-power of some sort seems like it's in order. Cheapest good route on the diesel scene looks to be a Beta 30. From what I'm seeing these can be had new for $6-7k. However, EVERY thread I've read about a re-power says $20-25k so I guess there's something I'm missing? We can do this sort of work at our docks (already checked) and have a marine hoist we can use, etc. I've worked on several motorboat engines, worked on/swapped lots of car engines, so I'm comfortable with all that as well. Like I said, the only thing I'm not comfortable with is having to wait 2 months for 1 part to make it work (maybe).

Alternatively we've thought about going Electric. We're on a lake and really just fair weather sailors so primarily it's just for getting in and out of the marina. We're also BoatUS Gold members so if it all goes wrong we've got that to fall back on. Similar to the diesel re-power threads people say "Electric re-power costs just as much as diesel!" but on this point I've done a fair bit more research and sure if you go Oceanvolt or something like that you can spend all you want. However, Thunderstruck has a 10kw kit (ironically on back order until June) for $2k. Adding in Lead Acid batteries, BMS, Charger, gear reduction plate, sheet metal, battery cables, CANBUS adapter, etc. we're up around $5k. Upgrade to Litihium Ion and it jumps to $6.5k. Both options are for 4x12v 100ah batteries wired in series. If we determine that 100ah doesn't give us enough range then it's fairly simple to wire in another set of 4 in parallel to double our range. I'm pretty sure we could fit as many as 12 in the space currently occupied by our 50gal diesel tank. Every night we'll bring her back to shore power for unlimited recharging. Oh, and we can get around the 10kw kit back order by stepping up to the 18kw/72v kit and running it at 12kw/48v for ~$700 more.

Any boat is a lot of work (and money). Our thinking is that we'd rather spend our time keeping up the gel coat, teak, sails, lines, clutches, winches, blocks, plumbing, bottom job, etc. and less time on oil changes, fuel filter changes, fueling up, alternator belts, and wondering how much THAT slightly odd sound from the diesel is going to cost (and when).

So, I'm open to your thoughts. I'm also curious if we were to go the Electric route if we could get a significant amount of money from our diesel (not seeing my M-30's on Ebay presently).

Thanks!

 

[Christian Williams]

With no range issues, you may be a good candidate for electric power, especially if diesel engine, plumbing, instruments, fuel tank are shot.

But bear in mind that a working diesel is very low maintenance. You buy fuel and change the oil once a year, maybe. They are marvels of economy and simplicity. An electric motor system isn't free of issues and may have more.

 

[Loren Beach]

I have several blog entries here about our Betamarine install, and the work that went in to it, and also some of the auxiliary systems I upgraded at the same time. Different hulls, but the basics are similar.
Here is the first one, in June 2018. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/engine-replacement-olson-34.616/
There are more, discussing the engine and fuel system changes.

 

[bigd14]

Other than the exhaust elbow which you have fixed, what are the other issues? There are probably fuel issues that are preventing it from running right now. Are there known terminal issues, like a cracked block or something else catastrophic like that? Some proprietary Universal parts are hard to get, but unless something really bad has happened these engines should run practically forever. Seems like it could be rebuilt and have some new bits put on for a lot less than a new engine. I would be inclined to jury rig the fuel system to draw out of a jerry can and see if you can get it to run before deciding to rip it out.

Not sure if this ebay listing is the exactly the same engine? https://www.ebay.com/itm/174614138694?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160811114145&meid=a36363218e6e4f1a8ebf6446251847d9&pid=100667&rk=3&rkt=4&mehot=none&sd=173893300660&itm=174614138694&pmt=0&noa=1&pg=2334524&_trksid=p2334524.c100667.m2042

 

[saphira36]

Thanks all for your replies. Maybe I'm suffering from the equivalent of searching the Internet for health issues and finding that your runny nose means you have cancer. Just seems like an endless sea of diesel complaints. Then again, why take the time to post about how much you love your diesel today?

All indications are that the previous owners took excellent care of the boat and engine prior to reaching a point they could no longer keep up with her and let her sit for several years. Coolant was fresh and clear, maintenance records at the marina showed regular work, etc. No water in the oil or oil in the water. The muffler is cracked, and the hose/bend from the elbow to the muffler is trash, but everything else looks promising. I haven't checked the heat exchanger yet. At a minimum I'm thinking it will need a zync but more than likely it's a goner having sat with stagnant lake water in it for so long.

That engine you found on ebay bigd14 is the 4 cylinder model, this is the 3 cylinder that I have.

 

[Dave G.]

The engine is basically a marinized Kubota tractor engine. So all of the engine parts are readily available and cheaper from a Kubota dealer.

 

[Teranodon]

There have been a number of discussions here about electric propulsion. The basic problem is range. A tank of diesel fuel just has a lot more stored energy than a practical battery system. In your case, by definition, four 12V/100Ah batteries can run at 4.8 kW for one hour. So, the Thunderstruck 10kW (equivalent to 13 horsepower, i.e., marginally adequate for a 36-footer) motor will completely drain your batteries (not a good idea, by the way) in about a half-hour. Assuming that 13HP propels a 36-footer at 4 knots (just a guess), that gives you a round-trip range of one nautical mile! Is that good enough? I certainly would consider that unsafe, but your sailing environment is different from mine. In my view, electric propulsion is a "boutique" undertaking, to be done for its own sake, not for real-life sailing.

 

[Jenkins]

There have been a number of discussions here about electric propulsion. The basic problem is range. A tank of diesel fuel just has a lot more stored energy than a practical battery system. In your case, by definition, four 12V/100Ah batteries can run at 4.8 kW for one hour. So, the Thunderstruck 10kW (equivalent to 13 horsepower, i.e., marginally adequate for a 36-footer) motor will completely drain your batteries (not a good idea, by the way) in about a half-hour. Assuming that 13HP propels a 36-footer at 4 knots (just a guess), that gives you a round-trip range of one nautical mile! Is that good enough? I certainly would consider that unsafe, but your sailing environment is different from mine. In my view, electric propulsion is a "boutique" undertaking, to be done for its own sake, not for real-life sailing.

there are numerous world cruisers using electric motors

is one example.

peter

 

[Sailingfun]

Go electric is a radical option and expensive for now due batteries price. But it's way less expensive than years ago. If you decide to go electric, check this provider: https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/
They have a sailboat kit and buy even a used battery pack.
An advantage of an electric engine convertion is if you add a small generator, you can easily convert to a hybrid engine and forget about the range.

 

[markvone]

Is this the '81-84 E36RH or the '70s King designed "cruising" 36? If the E36RH, you will not want to place four batteries on the starboard side where the fuel tank is. This will make the typical starboard list with a full fuel tank permanent.

The original Universal 5424 is incredibly simple. The internal parts are Kubota. The Universal marinization parts will be harder to find IF you need them but there are only a few of them. Exhaust manifold and elbow come to mind. I know you can have the elbow custom made but I'm not sure this is a part specific to the 5424. I've never heard of someone who needed the exhaust manifold but I'm sure it also could be custom fabricated if a used part could not be found. I doubt the nickel-copper heat exchanger will have any issues in fresh water. A 3 inch replacement is only ~ $350 and not a Universal part. You may find that you need the 3 inch H/E upgrade (I did) if your lake water temps get high enough (80s F).
It sounds like the basic maintenance has been kept up. I'd work at getting it running and only worry about replacement or parts if you find something major.

Mark

 

[Teranodon]

.....
An advantage of an electric engine convertion is if you add a small generator, you can easily convert to a hybrid engine and forget about the range.

I'm sorry, but the First Law of Thermodynamics is even more implacable than the Second. When it comes to energy, there is no free lunch. Once you drain your batteries (which happens quickly) and turn on your "small generator", then you are running on it, and it alone. How many HP (i.e., energy per unit time) is that? What if the current is pushing you onto the rocks? What if a crewmember is sick? What if you have to assist another boat? What if you have to outrun a storm? What if the inevitable microprocessor has an inevitable bad day?

Not for me. I love my ePropulsion outboard (will post a review soon) but the 25HP Betamarine stays.

 

[Christian Williams]

An electric motor backed up by a diesel generator is very clever.

Even more clever is my boat, which has a propeller attached to the diesel generator. It both drives the boat at 7 knots and makes electricity at the same time, and the range is 700 miles.

 

[Mark F]

Hi Saphira36,

For me a lake sailing sailboat is an excellent candidate for EP auxiliary. The advantage of quiet - odor free motoring is pretty sweet. Range is what you want to make it and a 100ah battery bank is quite minimal but as you say you can add more batteries if/when you decide you want more range or speed. If you can swing a lithium bank I would definitely do that. The advantages are real - more usable capacity for given AH, faster charging, more stable voltage curve, lighter and a lithium bank doesn't care what charge level it sits at (lead acid needs to be brought back to full charge as quick as possible). In my E27 with a 13 year old 5kw EP system I can motor at 4 knots in flat water with a clean bottom for many hours.

I've got a 320 watt solar panel on the boat and can motor without using battery at 2ish knots on a good sunny day.

A couple of days ago after sailing for 2 hours in big winds - double reefed, about 80% of headsail rolled out (regularly seeing 7 knots of boat speed) and bright sun I was sailing into the Harbor and the BMS started beeping at me. I had produced too much electricity through solar and prop regeneration and was over charging a battery. Oh well no sailing into the slip that day. Not a bad problem to have ;-).

 

[gabriel]

Hi Saphira36,

For me a lake sailing sailboat is an excellent candidate for EP auxiliary. The advantage of quiet - odor free motoring is pretty sweet. Range is what you want to make it and a 100ah battery bank is quite minimal but as you say you can add more batteries if/when you decide you want more range or speed. If you can swing a lithium bank I would definitely do that. The advantages are real - more usable capacity for given AH, faster charging, more stable voltage curve, lighter and a lithium bank doesn't care what charge level it sits at (lead acid needs to be brought back to full charge as quick as possible). In my E27 with a 13 year old 5kw EP system I can motor at 4 knots in flat water with a clean bottom for many hours.

I've got a 320 watt solar panel on the boat and can motor without using battery at 2ish knots on a good sunny day.

A couple of days ago after sailing for 2 hours in big winds - double reefed, about 80% of headsail rolled out (regularly seeing 7 knots of boat speed) and bright sun I was sailing into the Harbor and the BMS started beeping at me. I had produced too much electricity through solar and prop regeneration and was over charging a battery. Oh well no sailing into the slip that day. Not a bad problem to have ;-).

I don’t see how you can produce too much electricity. wouldn’t the chargers just stop the current when batteries are fully charged??

If your system is capable of overcharging the batteries isn’t that seriously dangerous?

Do inboard electric drives have regenerative capability?

 

[Dave G.]

If it fits your type of sailing and you have a lot of $$ to throw at it electric is very a attractive alternative. It's kind of like electric cars, if you only drive around town it works really well. You just can't long trips without some very careful planning and long down time intervals while you charge the batteries. It's not there yet for me as I like to drive distances in my car when I need to, and go for week long trips on the boat when I want to. Curious where all these batteries go when they die ?

 

[Mark F]

Hi gabriel,

The solar controller cuts off when it determines the battery is fully charged (too earlier in my view). The AC (shorepower) battery chargers ramp down and stop charging. If one of the batteries goes over 3.7 volts and the entire bank (16 cells series) is still below the charger cutoff voltage (on the AC system) the whole system gets cut off. Works great.

Yes the electric inboard has regen capability, that's what happened the other day. There are different ways to setup the BMS and I have chosen to have it "warn" me while motoring (I consider regen motoring). I would rather damage a battery then have the motor stop working when I needed it. The remedy for me the other day was to start motoring and draw down the battery a little - hence my, sail into the slip comment ;-)

Since this is a sailing forum I'm not going to comment on the electric cars are only for driving around town, WOW!

 

[gadangit]

For what it is worth, the only one replying so far to this thread with actual experience with an electric motor for secondary propulsion is Mark F.
From what you've described, a 10kW electric motor will be more than needed to move your boat from slip to sailing. I would consider LiFePo to be essential for all the reasons Mark listed above. It made a big difference for us as well.

Our fully loaded for cruising 20.000lb boat in flat water uses about 6kw for 5 kts. I clean the bottom and prop religiously. I don't go anywhere without a sail up.

In the end, the limitations of range and power will make you a better sailor.

 

[Loren Beach]

Some friends of ours with a Model S have driven close to 270 miles on a charge (2017 Tesla). If you have the higher capacity battery bank option, the range seems to match most petrol fuel vehicles. There are a lot of reasons to go electric for our boats, but for most of us I imagine that the diesel engine will be better choice for the near future. It really does depend on your needs and your interests.

 

[Christian Williams]

Conversion confusion

"Sailing Uma," trying to guess the consumption of their hydraulic autopilot, came up with "maybe one kilowatt hour in 24 hours."

But my world is measured in ampere hours. Can anybody here make the conversion?

Apparently it's apples and oranges--but my Victron monitors amps so I'm kinda out of the wattage loop.

(And of course my Torquedo outboard shows only Watts.)

 

[saphira36]

Really good stuff everyone, thank you!

markvone, this is actually just called the Ericson 36 (not the RH). It's a Ron Holland design and from what I can tell only 32 were ever made. According to sailboat data she weighs in at 11,600lbs so pretty light for a 36 footer. Also thanks for the tip on the Heat Exchanger. The price I found for a 3" was $850 so I'll definitely do some more shopping if it comes to that. It's currently got a 2" but they've got it running through an abandoned hot water heater (newer one installed under setee) I suspect to supplement the smaller heat exchanger. I'd like to clean that up.

I actually just discovered yesterday that perhaps I can actually build this elusive "riser" (forgive me, I'd said elbow before but it's actually the riser that's trash). I found a site where a guy makes all kinds of them (for Yanmars but the principle is the same I think) and now some Catalina guys doing the same. Again, this setup looks really different than the Universal I have but it's clearly the same engine they're putting this wild setup on.

If/When I go the electric route yeah I'm definitely going with LiFePo. On that note there's a huge range in price. Battleborn seems to be a favorite at $950 for a 12v 100ah but I came across Weize with a 12v 100ah for $530 (Amazon prices). I'm sure the Weize doesn't have the 10yr warranty of the Battleborns but anything else concerning about this?

Thanks everyone, all the feedback (pro and con of each) is appreciated!