Considering going Electric

gabriel

Member III
Conversion confusion

"Sailing Uma," trying to guess the consumption of their hydraulic autopilot, came up with "maybe one kilowatt hour in 24 hours."

But my world is measured in ampere hours. Can anybody here make the conversion?

Apparently it's apples and oranges--but my Victron monitors amps so I'm kinda out of the wattage loop.

(And of course my Torquedo outboard shows only Watts.)
3.45 amps @ 12 volts

or 6.91 @ 24v?
 

Jenkins

Member II
Conversion confusion

"Sailing Uma," trying to guess the consumption of their hydraulic autopilot, came up with "maybe one kilowatt hour in 24 hours."

But my world is measured in ampere hours. Can anybody here make the conversion?

Apparently it's apples and oranges--but my Victron monitors amps so I'm kinda out of the wattage loop.

(And of course my Torquedo outboard shows only Watts.)
A watt is amps times volts. For a 12 volt system then, 1000 W/12 V = 83 amps. They report 1 kW hour so that would be 83 ampere hours

peter
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
saphira36,

I have a 1981 E36, hull #21. The RH refers to Ron Holland and is not an official designation. We just add it after the 36 to distinguish our model from the late 70s Bruce King "cruising" 36 which is an entirely different animal. What hull number do you have and where are you located?
I'll suggest that you put your boat model and general location (lake name, state) in your message signature/footer so that responders can be more specific with the info they provide. One of the site moderators was going to say this anyway if you keep hanging around here :).

I've owned my E36RH for 10 years and have restored or replaced almost everything over that time even though my boat was in great condition when I bought it.. I also have A LOT of reference material on the model and parts researched from the internet so let me know if you are looking for something or have a question. This includes the Kubota part cross references for the Universal 5424. Don't buy ANYTHING from Universal/Westerbeke or any other "marine" source without checking here and searching on the web first.

Here's a link to the Seacamp NiCu 3 inch H/E that I bought in 2013 from Mr. Kool now $375 + S&H. You maybe can get it cheaper direct from Seacamp or with a web search on the P/N:


NOTE: Universal upgraded to the 3 inch H/E at some point so DO NOT buy an older 2 inch H/E. Chesapeake Bay water temp is 80 - 90F in the summer.

I have a replacement riser/elbow on my 5424 that the PO installed. I'll have to check to see if it's a Universal/Westerbeke part. It is quite common to have a custom part built for the more basic components that are out of production or the available Universal part is expensive.

Mark
 

jtsai

Member II
Conversion confusion

"Sailing Uma," trying to guess the consumption of their hydraulic autopilot, came up with "maybe one kilowatt hour in 24 hours."

But my world is measured in ampere hours. Can anybody here make the conversion?

Apparently it's apples and oranges--but my Victron monitors amps so I'm kinda out of the wattage loop.

(And of course my Torquedo outboard shows only Watts.)
I too am challenged working with watt-hr and amp-hr. Here is what sticked:

W = A * V
1000 KW = A * 12
A = 83 (per 24 hr.),
or 3.5 amp per hour.

Compares to other boat systems, refrigeration consumes roughly 4.5 amp-hr when running.

Uma and boats with electrical motor might have 24V system, so the amp-hr would be half of the above.
 
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gadangit

Member III
I think a big reason that diesel to electric conversions don't make a lot of sense is that the boat was designed from the start with a diesel engine. It has all the components from the fuel tank to routing of the exhaust, and everything in between already in place in a somewhat traditionally organized fashion. (No comment on accessibility or other negative attributes.) There are a lot of usable components, value, that will be removed if one wants to go electric. Then, the entire value of the electrical propulsion needs to be paid for and then found a home for in a space that it is not designed for. Look at the difference between a Tesla and those old electric motor conversions in car shows from 20 years ago. One is elegant and one is, er, not.

In the OP case, all components are in place with a variety of issues that are "easily" solvable. Some time and money spent will get the motor up and running. As noted, diesel engines, once in good working order, are marvelous for their longevity. Will someone please invent a seawater pump that does not contain rubber consumable with an unknown maintenance interval??

If you are looking for an interesting project with a lot of subtle and not so subtle overall advantages, then an electric conversion is a more than adequate replacement for secondary propulsion. Not better, not worse, just different. We are talking about a hobby of a transportation method that was made obsolete many many years ago.

As was asked of me by a very wise old codger: what do you want to do go sailing or build boats? Only you can answer that.
 

Dave G.

1984 EY30+ Ludington, MI
Some friends of ours with a Model S have driven close to 270 miles on a charge (2017 Tesla). If you have the higher capacity battery bank option, the range seems to match most petrol fuel vehicles.
Except that you now have to find a charging station and wait 10 hours to drive 270 miles again. Fossil fuel is readily available and takes 5 minutes to "charge".
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Re the amps conversion: if a belowdecks autopilot can require 83 amp hours/24 hours under stress conditions, I would have to run the engine a very long time to keep up. Maybe continuously. Which is why I have a wind vane.

Range should be defined broadly for boats. In a storm there's no sun for solar panels, regen doesn't work with a drogue out, and everything depends on the ultimate battery bank. And maybe diesel recharging as backup.

For boats, electric still seems to me dubious. Yet Paco is halfway around the world with his little electric motor. Everything is how you see it.
 

gadangit

Member III
Re the amps conversion: if a belowdecks autopilot can require 83 amp hours/24 hours under stress conditions, I would have to run the engine a very long time to keep up. Maybe continuously. Which is why I have a wind vane.

Range should be defined broadly for boats. In a storm there's no sun for solar panels, regen doesn't work with a drogue out, and everything depends on the ultimate battery bank. And maybe diesel recharging as backup.

For boats, electric still seems to me dubious. Yet Paco is halfway around the world with his little electric motor. Everything is how you see it.
I agree, electric isn't for everyone. Are you saying that a continuous 3.5A draw from your 12V battery bank would require a continuous running of your engine alternator?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Except that you now have to find a charging station and wait 10 hours to drive 270 miles again. Fossil fuel is readily available and takes 5 minutes to "charge".
There are quite a few hi-amp charging stations in my general geographic area. An 80% charge takes about 20 minutes at one of these.
(To me, that's not much different in lost time than a stop at any busy service station to fill up our vehicle with gasoline.)
The ten hour time would be appropriate for a home charger in your garage, and I do have a friend with a model 3 Tesla who does this every time he returns home. He absolutely loves the way he always starts each day with a full "fuel" tank. :)

While we will not likely change to an electric vehicle, the trend seems to be slowly and steadily picking up the pace....
 

saphira36

Junior Member
markvone - Oh! Now I feel foolish. I thought the RH meant something else entirely... That being said, and I have trouble believing this is really the case, but it appears I have the very next boat produced? ERY36X22M83J Thing is, the way I understand these hull IDs to work, that means boat 22 was finished 2 years after boat 21 (yours). Can this be right?

gadangit - Sage words. I guess I'm trying to figure out if I want to be a sailor or a builder honestly. :) I used to run autocross in a highly modified car 20 something years ago. For every minute on the track I spent hours in the shop so it just kinda feels natural to me. Balance, I guess, is what I should really strive for. With what I've learned about these risers over the past couple of days I really think I'm going to try a DIY Catalina exhaust riser and see how that goes.
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
markvone - Oh! Now I feel foolish. I thought the RH meant something else entirely... That being said, and I have trouble believing this is really the case, but it appears I have the very next boat produced? ERY36X22M83J Thing is, the way I understand these hull IDs to work, that means boat 22 was finished 2 years after boat 21 (yours). Can this be right?

gadangit - Sage words. I guess I'm trying to figure out if I want to be a sailor or a builder honestly. :) I used to run autocross in a highly modified car 20 something years ago. For every minute on the track I spent hours in the shop so it just kinda feels natural to me. Balance, I guess, is what I should really strive for. With what I've learned about these risers over the past couple of days I really think I'm going to try a DIY Catalina exhaust riser and see how that goes.
Hi Chris,

Yep, small world. Our hulls at least started in the factory at the same time 40 years ago. Mine went to southern California until I shipped it east to Annapolis in 2011.
I have researched most of the 33 E36RHs (there was a custom aluminum prototype and 32 glass production boats) that I came across when I was looking for my boat. I've got info on all but 8 of the 32. My hull #21 build date per HIN is M81J. Hull #24 build per HIN is M81L and Hull #25 is M82A. So I suspect either a typo on the registration paperwork (83 should be 81, the 'J' is OK. I've seen up to 4 E36RH built in the same month per their HINs.) or your hull was started right after mine and then held up in production and completed EXACTLY two years later (not as likely). If I were you I would inspect the HIN imprinted on the upper starboard transom (just inboard of the MOB pole recess - see pic) and make sure it matches your paperwork.

Mark
IMG_4251.JPG
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
a continuous 3.5A draw from your 12V battery bank would require a continuous running of your engine alternator?

I have a house bank of two Group 32 105s (reserve battery not included). So yes, 3.5/hour would mean about 85 amps used in 24 hours. It would mean many hours of recharging with my 100 amp Balmar alternator. Not continuous, but too many hours.

I normally use about 30 amps a day when cruising alone. I recharge when the Victron shows 50 percent depleted, and bring it back up to 80 percent or so, which takes about 50 minutes of engine time. In a three-day gale it would be nerve-wracking for me to be running the engine to keep up with the needs of power steering.

Anyhow, I would need more batteries.
 

saphira36

Junior Member
Wow, that's just wild. We'll be back to her on the 1st (family obligations this weekend) and I'll double check the HIN first thing. I actually had someone from the docks fetch it for me for insurance purposes so didn't put eyes on myself.

My club buddies actually raced another one of them for many years, maybe you've come across it in your searches? http://www.mostsailboats.org/1981-ericson-36rh/ Word is she was knocked off he stands in a bad wind storm and destroyed but I'm having trouble aligning their timeline with the timeline on this page.

I'm going to have an endless sea of questions for you but I'll try to space them out so as not to be obnoxious. :) Do you have a site/post with more pictures of Glide?
 

Filkee

Member III
When my M-25 finally kicks the bucket, I will happily swap out for an electric. Batteries keep getting better. What will my bilge smell like then?
 

markvone

Sustaining Member
Wow, that's just wild. We'll be back to her on the 1st (family obligations this weekend) and I'll double check the HIN first thing. I actually had someone from the docks fetch it for me for insurance purposes so didn't put eyes on myself.

My club buddies actually raced another one of them for many years, maybe you've come across it in your searches? http://www.mostsailboats.org/1981-ericson-36rh/ Word is she was knocked off he stands in a bad wind storm and destroyed but I'm having trouble aligning their timeline with the timeline on this page.

I'm going to have an endless sea of questions for you but I'll try to space them out so as not to be obnoxious. :) Do you have a site/post with more pictures of Glide?
That would be hull #9. It went up to Lake Michigan, north of Chicago in Wisconsin. I emailed two previous owners Jason and Ross here on EY.o before the most recent sale. They both raced the boat. I found the wind damage story on the web and then saw that the mast had been repaired via a splint in some of the pictures of Irish Rover when the hull was still green. Jason moved to the FL, Keys so the deep draft forced the sale to Ross. Ross replaced the mast and had the green hull painted white. I don't think the latest owner is active here.

Here's a link to my album of my boat from the sales listing back in 2011. It's hard to find, under the media tab up top. A bonus is you get three albums to see what the Bruce King E 36 looks like. I've changed a lot of stuff in ten years but I still have those original cushions :(.

https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/media/categories/e36-variants.14/

Below are a couple of current pictures.

Questions are no problem. Fire away.

Mark

IMG_4516.JPGIMG_4330.JPGIMG_4332.JPG
 

gabriel

Member III
A watt is amps times volts. For a 12 volt system then, 1000 W/12 V = 83 amps. They report 1 kW hour so that would be 83 ampere hours

peter
When my M-25 finally kicks the bucket, I will happily swap out for an electric. Batteries keep getting better. What will my bilge smell like then?
if batteries have kept getting better, by now we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, but the technology is pretty stale and the physical limits of the lithium chemistry very well known.

lithium batteries = 25 year old technology


flooded batteries 100+ years and not much change since then.
 

Teranodon

Member III
Conversion confusion

"Sailing Uma," trying to guess the consumption of their hydraulic autopilot, came up with "maybe one kilowatt hour in 24 hours."

But my world is measured in ampere hours. Can anybody here make the conversion?
Alas, the expression "one kilowatt hour in 24 hours" doesn't really make any sense.

Here is how I normally think about "consumption" of onboard devices: how long would the device take to drain a 100 Ah battery?

If the power of the device (in watts) is known, then divide it by 12 (volts) to get the current (in amps). Then divide 100 Ah by that current to get the number of hours until the battery is fully drained. Of course, fully draining any type of lead-acid battery is a terrible idea, but the calculation gives and idea of consumption.

If the current draw of the device is known, then just skip the first step.

NB. Unless "Uma" is a container ship or aircraft carrier, I would be surprised to learn that the autopilot runs at one kilowatt (83 amps). My Raymarine EV-100 probably consumes 1% of that.
 

Teranodon

Member III
An electric motor backed up by a diesel generator is very clever.

....
I'm not sure about that, Christian. It's true that diesel-electric drive has been used in locomotives for nearly 100 years. Today, many big ships (e.g., cruise ships) have big fossil-fueled piston engines or turbines, plus dynamos (generators) wired to electric motors. But they do this so as to avoid carrying giant clutches and transmissions. Our puny craft don't need giant anything: the diesel is coupled to the prop directly (ok, ok, the simple forward/reverse/neutral "transmission" does have a 2:1 reduction).

The issue in contention here is energy storage, i.e., batteries. Locomotives and cruise ships don't rely on them. Batteries can provide almost infinite power (current) plus they are quiet and don't stink. Depending on how the charging electricity is produced, they may be "green", or not. But, but, but: the amount of energy that they can store is minuscule compared with a tank-full of diesel fuel. If you just want to go in and out of the marina on a calm day in flat water, fine. For the kind of sailing many of us do, in tricky waters where S can and does happen - nope.
 

lindaloo

Member II
Looking at google maps of the Fort Worth area, there is Eagle Mtn Lake and Lewisville Lake. Both approximately 6 miles long by 2 miles wide, ballparkish.

A thought, if this is indeed Saphira's cruising ground.

Lakes can get very gnarly, very fast. You need to reserve enough battery power to get home pronto from the far end of the lake and safely power through the marina breakwater. Motoring straight into the teeth of a stiff wind with nasty chop, you may only make 3kn over ground. That's 2 hours from the far end of the lake. Upwind, of course. Worst case scenario. (It's no picnic even with a diesel.) I'm not saying don't go electric but have the motor power and battery to get the job done when needed.

Rob
 

Teranodon

Member III
Looking at google maps of the Fort Worth area, there is Eagle Mtn Lake and Lewisville Lake. Both approximately 6 miles long by 2 miles wide, ballparkish.

A thought, if this is indeed Saphira's cruising ground.

Lakes can get very gnarly, very fast. You need to reserve enough battery power to get home pronto from the far end of the lake and safely power through the marina breakwater. Motoring straight into the teeth of a stiff wind with nasty chop, you may only make 3kn over ground. That's 2 hours from the far end of the lake. Upwind, of course. Worst case scenario. (It's no picnic even with a diesel.) I'm not saying don't go electric but have the motor power and battery to get the job done when needed.

Rob
These are very good points. But it brings up yet another reason not to go electric. Sooner or later, most boats have to be sold. What will be the effect on the sale price of an underpowered, finicky, "boutique" propulsion system that only works on smallish lakes? Also, given that the technology is evolving all the time, it is almost guaranteed to be obsolete in a few short years.
 
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