Cracks @ Rudder Post and Loose Strut

[Bolo]

Yesterday I had our E32-3 pulled out to do bottom work (paint and polish) along with other things that required to boat to be on the hard. After the Chesapeake slime was power washed off the old bottom black paint look very good considering it was applied two years ago. There were also a few small blisters but no big deal. So, I left the boat in the good hands of the marina to be blocked and worked on.

However, later after the hull dried out a bit I received an email from the service manager which read in part, "We have a concern with the rudder and the strut. Both are moving a bit more than then should and they are weeping water. There are cracks outlining your rudder shaft. It looks like you need a new rudder bearing." He also included some photos which I marked up for clarity.



Here, on the port side, you can clearly see cracks in the areas before and after the rudder post. The service manager said that after most of the hull dried out from the power washing a little water was seeping out of these cracks. Also the rudder was shaking too much, from side to side, and he thought I would need new rudder bearings.


Here is the view from the starboard side where there are some additional cracks similar to those on the port side.



Looking from below up at the hull cracks on the port side and a shorter crack at the bottom.



Top of the strut. The service manager said that the strut was too loose and again some water was dripping out of the connection area and bottom paint was flaked off.


WHAT TO DO NEXT?
The next step is to drop the rudder to get a good look at the bearings and the rudder tube. Dremel the cracks to see if they could just be fairing material that is cracked or if the cracks penetrate much deeper. Then find access to the strut nuts which on my E32-3 are (I think) below the hot water heater and the platform that it sits on. I've never even seen those nuts so I'm not sure if they are accessible for tightening. If they are then the strut would still need to be removed for inspection and re-bedding.

WHAT I'M HOPING FOR IN THE END
As far as the cracks around the rudder tube area I'm thinking that this is solid fiberglass. Perhaps someone who's had experience with repairs in this area can tell me but considering the hydrodynamic loads on the tube and rudder shaft I'm guessing that it's solid. (I could be wrong) The same goes for the strut connection area. I've not had any large volumes of water in the bilge, just some when it rains a certain way, but none after a "lively" sail which IMHO would be the case if the cracks penetrated through the hull at the rudder tube. If not heard (aside from a small creak now and then) or felt anything in the rudder while sailing. I'm hoping that it's just cracks in the faring through that area and it can be easily repaired and not cracks that go much deeper requiring the whole area to be rebuilt which would be rather expensive.

As for the rudder bearing repairs, I did do a little bit of research on this site about that issue and discovered that the E32-3 (1987) has two rudder bearings. One at the top which is replaceable and the other at the bottom, glassed in the the boat (????) that is not replaceable? But repairs have been done by previous owners using a technique developed by West Systems that is described in their Fiberglass Repair Manual (Section 8.4). https://www.westsystem.com/app/uploads/2022/10/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf

COSTS
This is a big one, of course. The service manager stated that I had a very good boat and, besides the current issues, it's in great shape. A very recent insurance marine survey also echoed his sentiments. However, it comes down to how much I'd want to spend. That amount is unknown at the present and we'll only have a better idea of the potential costs after some "exploratory surgery" is done. Then it becomes a personal issue. If it's too high then, as the service manger suggests, donate the boat and then look for a new one. But starting over again even with another Ericson for example would require additional expanse to bring it up to the upgraded status of my current boat (new electronics, standing rigging, sails, etc.) Buying a new boat requires a large expense up front. Spending the money for the worst case repairs may actually be the most economical way to go. All questions to consider but first we need to diagnose the full extent of the problems. Stay tunes, as they use to say.

 

[bigd14]

That’s a bummer. Strut replacement is a big job. I documented my strut replacement in the blogs section. Hopefully if the strut is sound it could be stabilized in place from below. Otherwise it requires disassembly of the entire stern area.

bigd14's Blog

ericsonyachts.org

 

[tenders]

I can’t speak to the rudder bearings but the fiberglass around the rudder is surely grindable and repairable, with epoxy and strips of fiberglass cloth and roving, to a level of fortitude exceeding the original. In the course of that repair you might discover that what is cracking is just Bondo-like filler fairing the area around the rudder, not actual structural fiberglass. Why is it cracked - did the boat run aground at some point? These kinds of repairs are dusty but not rocket science, and are easily accomplished by a determined DIY owner, although I’m sure the yard bill can quickly get out of hand.

Would also suggest a solid self-inspection of the strut to understand what is loose and what is tight in its installation. I’d tighten the nuts on the inside of the hull and caulk it from the inside before coming to any other conclusions.

 

[Loren Beach]

There are some good prior threads here with pix. Here is just one: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/ericson-olson-34-shaft-strut-no-joy.15530/#post-112402
And another link within that entry.

Ours is holding strong, so far. The future is, as they say, "out there."

 

[Kenneth K]

Bob, those could be big jobs--sorry to hear about your problems.

First thing I'd say is, take everything the yard says with two grains of salt until the problem areas are exposed and investigated. They often jump to conclusions.

Second, those two issues, the strut and the rudder bearing, though they are in the same part of the boat, are two completely different and unrelated issues. A loose rudder doesn't contribute to a loose strut, and vice-versa. It could be they are correct about one of the issues and wrong about the other. Don't let them talk you into those two issues being related.

The strut: There are several excellent posts here about strut replacement, including Doug's, posted above. To access to the strut on the 32-3, remove the water heater and the plywood base it sits on. Here's what you'll see:

The "blob" of fiberglass circled above should be the strut mount. You'll have to grind it from above to access the strut. You'll likely find 4 bolts attaching the strut to the hull as well, but I believe various owners have found various functions for the bolts. Sometimes, they penetrate a secure area of the hull and provide strength to the attachment point. Other times they just rest on the hull and are mostly just embedded in the fiberglass "blob." In this second case, the bolts are mainly used just to align the strut within the "blob"

The rudder bearing: When you drop the rudder, here's what you'll see:

The rudder bearing extends about 6 inches into the hull. Above that, the rudder post extends upward into the interior hull-space space below the steering quadrant (green arrow). Above that is the upper bearing (orange arrow).
Rudder post. You'll also have to cut away the plywood platform that surrounds the rudder post. Then inspect the bottom of the rudder post for cracks. Also, re-pack the rudder gland packing material while the rudder is out.

Upper bearing. This can also become loose, which can contribute to play in the rudder post.

"It looks like you need a new rudder bearing."

This could mean more than one thing.

First, if they're claiming the inside of the bearing is worn (and allowing too much movement of the rudder shaft against the bearing), I'd be skeptical. If it was too much movement of the rudder post that caused the cracks in the hull, you certainly would have heard loud, repeated, and alarming banging sounds as the rudder post slapped side-to-side against the bearing. It would take some forceful and repeated banging to cause those cracks in the hull. However, if a worn bearing IS the cause of the problem (can be verified with a micrometer), then the West Systems repair technique is an option you could consider.

Another possible problem is that the bearing wasn't properly embedded in the hull when originally glassed in. If water from the rudder tube is seeping in between the outside of the bearing and the hull, corrosion of the bearing's exterior could be causing expansion that is pushing outward and cracking the hull (the same could happen from freezing water). If this is the case, the West System repair won't work, and you'll need both a new bearing and a complete fiberglass cut-out & repair job of the entire bearing and the surrounding area.

When you push the rudder side-to-side, try to discriminate between any "looseness" that may be occurring between the rudder post and the bearing from that occurring between the bearing and the hull. This may help you isolate the problem.

And, before the yard tears anything apart (strut or rudder), take as many measurements as you can of angles and distances of the rudder and strut vis-a-vis the hull. Once you've removed parts and cut into the hull, it can be hard to reconstruct where things were originally positioned.

Best of luck.

 

[frick]

Most the Ericson Rudder were made by Foss Foam in Ca. They are still making them. My 1971 Ericson Rudder had a bit of wiggle... and it proved to be compressed foam, caused by the winter freeze cycle in NY. I thought about a new replacement rudder, but decided to do surgery on the rudder. Plan "A" large barn door in the side and refoam... Plan "B" drill and bunch of hole and locate the internal mandrels, create a mushroom like shape inside the rudder and inject 5200 to harden the mandrels to the inner sides.

I went with plan B... It worked.

 

[Christian Williams]

As an easy check, examine the top bearing fitting. If it's a plate in the cockpit, check the nuts on the bolts under the cockpit floor.

My rudder wobbled like crazy simply because the top bearing bolts got loose, allowing the rudder post to move laterally.

 

[Bolo]

I want to thank you all for your information and opinions. I'm heading back to my boat this Friday to take a closer look at the problems but this time armed with the knowledge you've all shared. Now more reflection about these issues this is my opinion.

After the boat was pull and washed down the very first thing I looked at was the cutlass bearing in the strut. I grabbed the shaft and gave it a good shaking several times to see it there was any excessive play in the bearing and there was none. Plus I did't notice any excessive shake in the strut. Of course I wasn't really looking for it but I imagine that if it were loose I'd notice. Also, if the strut were loose wouldn't it affect the cutlass bearing and cause more wear? I also looked back at some photos I took back in 2021 of the boat out of the water which included images of the strut and rudder. Enlarging both there it definitely a "crack" at the point where the strut meets the hull and some crack in the bottom paint where the rudder post goes into the hull, just not as many as the recent photos. (See below).

I'm will not be surprised to find that the upper bearing housing on the rudder is loose. Over the past two years I've not heard any "clunking" sounds coming from the rudder beneath my feet. If the cracks were deep, in the hull at the rudder post, then I imagine that there would be water intrusion evident in the bulge. There isn't. The strut flexes a bit I'm sure under normal operation from the action of the shaft turning inside the cutlass bearing, vibration from the engine and hydrodynamic forces. All surly contribute to a small crack in the bottom paint over time. This Friday I'm going to try and verify all my conclusions know what I know now and get back to you all.

 

[JSM]

As far as the cracks around the rudder tube area I'm thinking that this is solid fiberglass. Perhaps someone who's had experience with repairs in this area can tell me but considering the hydrodynamic loads on the tube and rudder shaft I'm guessing that it's solid.

The area around the tube is solid. The base of the tube with the glassed in bearing is right there, everything aft of the tube is hollow. Is there a lot of bottom paint build up ? Hopefully those cracks are just thru paint. I would grind out the area around them and see how deep they go.

As for the rudder bearing repairs, I did do a little bit of research on this site about that issue and discovered that the E32-3 (1987) has two rudder bearings. One at the top which is replaceable and the other at the bottom, glassed in the the boat (????) that is not replaceable? But repairs have been done by previous owners using a technique developed by West Systems that is described in their Fiberglass Repair Manual (Section 8.4).

I did the West Systems repair on our 34-2 which looks identical to your set up, the rudder bearing is glassed in . The job was easier than I thought it would be and the play in my rudder was eliminated.

 

[Christian Williams]

Here is what I consider normal play;

 

[Bolo]

Here is what I consider normal play;

I will be checking the "rudder play" tomorrow along with any play in the strut.

 

[Drewm3i]

Bob, sorry to hear of your woes. IMO the first step besides dropping the rudder is to grind those cracks out to see how deeply they penetrate into the laminate. If they are all the way through, you are looking at major glass work (rebuilding the rudder stub) after replacing/tightening up the slop in the bearing. If the cracks are only into the first layer of CSM, then you can simply laminate a layer or two of biaxial 1708, fair, sand, and paint.

As far as the strut, I like Kenneth K's advice. I would tend to agree with his assessment of the cracks as being due to a freeze/thaw cycle, vs. flexing of the whole rudder tube and strut assembly.

 

[Pete the Cat]

I can’t speak to the rudder bearings but the fiberglass around the rudder is surely grindable and repairable, with epoxy and strips of fiberglass cloth and roving, to a level of fortitude exceeding the original. In the course of that repair you might discover that what is cracking is just Bondo-like filler fairing the area around the rudder, not actual structural fiberglass. Why is it cracked - did the boat run aground at some point? These kinds of repairs are dusty but not rocket science, and are easily accomplished by a determined DIY owner, although I’m sure the yard bill can quickly get out of hand.

Would also suggest a solid self-inspection of the strut to understand what is loose and what is tight in its installation. I’d tighten the nuts on the inside of the hull and caulk it from the inside before coming to any other conclusions.

I am not sure why the yard thinks these cracks indicate a new rudder bearing. I think more investigation--some involving some serious grinding (more than a Dremel tool). If the rudder is loose in the lower bearing, I think you have the solution with the West proposal. This is easy to do--I have done it. I would, however want to confirm that the structural glass around the bearing has not been compromised by something and that would mean grinding to see how deep the cracks are in the substrate.
On the strut, before I would go inside to tighten it, I would probably want to strip all the paint off it to see if it has turned pink and needs replacement, and go from there inside to do what is needed if that is the case.

 

[Bolo]

UPDATE AFTER SOME "Exploratory Surgery".

This past Friday (Sept 26th) I drove the usual 2+ hours to my boat which I found up on the hard adjacent to the marina work shop. First thing I did was to check the "rudder play". Taking a good hold and shaking the rudder I could see less about 1/8" of play which to me seemed to be fine. I also checked the bolts in the upper bearing housing and they were tight. Then I again took a good hold of the bearing strut and tried to shake it loose but I could see no movement (Hmmm). It was time to call in the marina Service Manager and Head Rigger over to the boat who both told me that they were concerned with a "shaky" rudder and strut.

The Head Rigger said that the "rudder play" is typical in a 1987 sailboat and expected. (OK, so why did you make such a fuss?). When we talked about the bottom bearing being glassed in he said that yes, if the the rudder play was excessive then they would have suggested to grind out the bearing, replacing it with a new one after some major fiberglass work that wold be very expensive and in the end not worth keeping the boat. (Yikes!) So then I told him about the West Systems repair instructions for fixing a loose glassed in rudder. (For those of you not familiar with it please look at references to this fix earlier on in this string of postings). Well, while I was telling him about it he looked, amused, and then said that they would NEVER attempt that sort of fix. (Hmmm) In the end he said that the rudder play, as it is, was not a big deal (Why didn't you say that in the first place) and really nothing needs to be done about it.

The we went on to the strut. I told them about my shaking the strut and finding no problems. The Service manager said that when he shook it, "A tiny bit of water was coming out of the area where the strut went into the hull." With that the Head Rigger suggested that a small groove in the hull, adjacent to the strut, be ground out and then filled in with 5200 to for a "fillet" to keep water out. The 5200 would flex a little and not crack. So talk of removing the strut was shelved. Good so far right? Well now we come to the somewhat surprising bad news but better than what I expected.

So next I pulled out my Dremel tool and started to follow the cracks to see how deep they went. Here is a photo of the area before I started. The starboard side is similar but not pictured here.



As I followed the surface cracks down through the layers of bottom paint, barrier coat and then finally fiberglass I found that some of the cracks went all the way in and some didn't.


However following the single crack on the port side, at the bottom of the hull just above the rudder I opened up a hold into the space near where the lower bronze bearing is located. And I didn't have to do very much grinding with my Dremel to reveal it! The hull thickness here was less than 1/4". The hole widened out to about 1/2 to 5/8 of an inch until the hull thickens up again.



I cut a short piece of coat hanger and probed into the hole to estimate how big the cavity was in the boat.


Every time I pulled the coat hanger out it was covered in black yuck which I'm guessing is because of the bay water leaching into the cavity since this area is underwater. Using my thumb as a guide I measured the maximum depth to be about 2.5 inches.


After probing around I estimated that the void was roughly the are I have marked below. It's not exactly that shape but in actuality rather rough. The starboard side did have cracks that again did go deep with others not deep at all. I can only assume that this cavity should have been fill with solid fiberglass especially since it is adjacent to the bottom rudder bearing. It appears this problem has been there since 1987 when the boat was built. I'm wondering how may other Ericsons have this manufacturing flaw if you want to call it that.



The areas I'm referring to are around where the green arrow shows on this drawing. So what's the plan? It's to grind down into the cracks and refill them with a mixture of epoxy and cut fiberglass. In the area of the "void" this will also be opened up by way of grinding and filled. Then the outer surface will be faired off, barrier coated and then covered with bottom paint. There is still a chance that some other problem may show up during the grinding operation but I think that I found the worst of it. I'm having th yard do the work since their crew have much more in experience, tools than I, along with me being over two hours from the boat and 74 years old. (I don't bend for long periods of time under a boat like I use to). So stay tuned. The problems with the rudder play and loose strut turned out to be no big deal after all but the "void" that opened up in the boat, after just a little grinding with my Dremel, is a bit worrisome but fixable, IMHO.

 

[Kenneth K]

Well, good news about the prop strut, at least.

I can only assume that this cavity should have been fill with solid fiberglass especially since it is adjacent to the bottom rudder bearing. It appears this problem has been there since 1987 when the boat was built. I'm wondering how may other Ericsons have this manufacturing flaw if you want to call it that.

Yeah, that should all be solid material around the bearing. I wonder if a PO smacked something sideways with the rudder, cracked the surrounding glass, and then did a shoddy repair. I guess that will become evident as you tear into this.

So what's the plan? It's to grind down into the cracks and refill them with a mixture of epoxy and cut fiberglass. In the area of the "void" this will also be opened up by way of grinding and filled. Then the outer surface will be faired off, barrier coated and then covered with bottom paint.

Since there's already a known deep void near the bearing, plus cracks all around the bearing area (on both sides of the boat), I'd want to add a couple layers of fiberglass cloth (both port and starboard) over the filled-in repair areas. For strength, something needs to tie the filled-in areas to the rest of the hull, both forward and aft of the bearing. I'd bet there are some pretty high lateral forces on the rudder post to hold a boat at 20+ degrees of heeling angle in a stiff wind.

 

[Bolo]

Well, good news about the prop strut, at least.


Yeah, that should all be solid material around the bearing. I wonder if a PO smacked something sideways with the rudder, cracked the surrounding glass, and then did a shoddy repair. I guess that will become evident as you tear into this.


Since there's already a known deep void near the bearing, plus cracks all around the bearing area (on both sides of the boat), I'd want to add a couple layers of fiberglass cloth (both port and starboard) over the filled-in repair areas. For strength, something needs to tie the filled-in areas to the rest of the hull, both forward and aft of the bearing. I'd bet there are some pretty high lateral forces on the rudder post to hold a boat at 20+ degrees of heeling angle in a stiff wind.

Well, the Service Manager pretty much said what you're suggesting, adding additional layers of fiberglass port and starboard. I'm wondering if the hole I opened up can be seen from the inside of the boat next to the rudder shaft or is the void just a "bubble". More will be uncovered as the yard grinds some of the areas open. My thought would be to seal it all up with layers of fiberglass and if the area inside is open then pour thickened epoxy in to fill more of the void around the rudder post.

Additional Comment: I was shocked to see how thin the fiberglass hull was at that point. I can't believe it was intentional.

 

[Loren Beach]

My thought would be to seal it all up with layers of fiberglass and if the area inside is open then pour thickened epoxy in to fill more of the void around the rudder post.

Plus One, as they say on the 'net.

 

[Alan Gomes]

What's the red material in the area you ground out?

 

[Bolo]

What's the red material in the area you ground out?

Next to the last coat of red bottom paint. Final coat was black so I could judge the wear.

 

[Captain Pete]

I get all that you are planning on this repair - especially adding extras layers of glass for strength and repair of cracks where the glass layup is thin.

What I don't exactly get with Ericsons is how the grease comes into play down there and wonder if some of that black goo is just old grease where there may actually be a designed void intended to be filled with grease. I think I read somewhere on this sight and viewing one of Christian's video that when there is play in the lower rudder bearing it often indicates the need to add grease to make the play go away and rudder to spin better.