Deck hardware rearrangement

Hagar2sail

Member II
This past season was my wife and I’s first summer with Rhumb Ration our 35-3 that we just bought. One of the things that has been driving us nuts is the rigging and deck hardware arrangement from the previous owner. Problem one was he had oversized all the halyards to 1/2” which didn’t work in the masthead sheves or the original shafer clutches. We are solving that by installing new vectran 3/8 halyards and I will be putting new (most likely Lewmar) clutches in, as the bushings in the shafers all crumbled from age this summer.

But the other oddity is we have two large barient self-tailing winches on starboard and a small aluminum lewmar winch to port. At first it looks simple. Genoa and main halyard are on the stbd outboard barient, inner starboard handles the mainsheet most of the time with the clew outhaul, boom bang, and first reef also led to it. Port side the lewmar handles the spinnaker halyard and second reef. The issue is twofold. First with our dodger up, you can’t swing the outboard winch handle, and the small lewmar on port is too small to shift halyards to it. Second the opening under our traveler on the stbd inboard side seems small to get more than three lines through.

I’m thinking of removing the Barient from outboard stbd and placing it where the lewmar is. Then moving the main halyard to the port side of the mast. So the stbd winch would be used for the genoa halyard, main sheet and one reef, the port side would have the main halyard, spinnaker halyard, second reef and boom vang. This also requires new deck organizers, probably a stacked 2-2 on stbd and 3-2 on port giving me one free spot on each organizer for expansion/ issues.

What are peoples thoughts? The current arrangement would work if we could swing the handle. Going back and forth on the 2 speed doesn’t work well for the last 20% of rasing the main as the load gets too large for the first speed. I don’t want to rely on a power winch handle either. Have others had similar issues? I saw another post by a 35-3 owner doing similar things, but all his rigging seemed to be starting from different places than ours. As new large boat owners we are wondering if we are just missing something? Does anyone know the purpose of the port cleat by the lewmar winch?

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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Moderator
Blogs Author
I have the genoa halyard on the port cabin house winch. With a roller furler it seldom gets used, and the line stays in the clutch. The smallish winch is fine because we don't put as much halyard tension on a roller furler luff. That port-side winch (via clutches) also serves for the boom vang, second reef, and two reef downhauls.

I recently installed new Lewmar clutches.

Regarding the, uh, dodger. I don't suppose that you could live without it, in Maine? Just askin'. And duckin'. But a yacht without a dodger--ah, people have forgotten what it's like.
 
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Hagar2sail

Member II
I have the genoa halyard on the port cabin house winch. With a roller furler it seldom gets used, and the line stays in the clutch. The smallish winch is fine because we don't put as much halyard tension on a roller furler luff. That port-side winch (via clutches) also serves for the boom vang, second reef, and two reef downhauls.

I recently installed new Lewmar clutches. However, Spinlocks stay open and Lewmars flop closed--which is annoying when you're working at the other end of the line. I'd go with Spinlocks next time.

Regarding the, uh, dodger. I don't suppose that you could live without it, in Maine? Just askin'. And duckin'. But a yacht without a dodger--ah, people have forgotten what it's like.
So maybe I don’t move the winch and instead move the Genoa halyard to the port side and see how we like it?? Still would need more clutches then we currently have port side. And a larger deck organizer. Either way good info. One of the issues is I would love to move both reefs to the port side but one comes out of the boom on stbd. Seems like it would wrap and chafe on the boom if I led it to a port side mast block and organizer, makes me think I have to keep one reef on each side.

Interesting comments on tbe lewmar clutches. I was interested in them mostly because of their supposed gentleness on the lines compared with spinlocks and others. But I could see how it would be extremely annoying if they won’t allow the line to pass freely. Our current schafers do that because they are old and tired, and it is extremely annoying.

Afraid that getting rid of the dodger would not be an option. I think my wife would personally throw me overboard if I did that :egrin:
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
I too have main halyard winch issues on my E34. There is so much friction on the main halyard and the 2 speed self tailing Barient winch dedicated to the main halyard (inside the dodger on the starboard side) does not allow a full swing of the winch handle so raising the main is a slow deal. I now route the main halyard to the larger winch on the starboard side of the cockpit so I can get a full revolution on the fast speed. Near the top I reverse the winch direction to the slow speed and with the main fully raised, I use the clutch to hold the main up while I reroute the halyard to the smaller winch under the dodger. Then I tighten up on the halyard, release the clutch. Much faster with less effort.

I also replace the 7/16 main halyard since it overfilled the mast top sheave, with 3/8 line and also replaced the wire-rope jib halyard with 3/8 line. Less friction but still need the winch to raise both the main and jib. Seems like a lot of friction to bring all the lines back to the cockpit but a my age, going to the mast is not worth the extra effort.
 

bgary

Advanced Beginner
Blogs Author
So maybe I don’t move the winch and instead move the Genoa halyard to the port side and see how we like it??
Seems like a good place to start.

I recently reconfigured my winches and clutches. Port side I have a spinnaker-halyard, the jib halyard, and 2nd-reef line. Starboard-side I have a spinnaker halyard, main halyard and 1st-reef line. I use a tack-downhaul for the forward end of each reef (doesn't go through a stopper). I also have my mainsheet and vang not going through stoppers. It's probably not an arrangement that works for everyone, but it works for me....

$.02
Bruce
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Moderator
Blogs Author
Yes, a main sheet in a clutch is madness.

An open clam cleat or cam cleat (no fairlead) is all we need for that when using the winch for something else.
 

RCsailfast

Member II
I took pictures of the layout on Antares tonight. Both sides have 2 winches but they are allot closer together allowing a handle to be used with the dodger in place. I know this isn’t an original layout but may give you some ideas.
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Port side has the traveler to the outside on a cam cleat. The empty clutch is for the A sail tack line. The quad is topping lift, spinnaker halyard, 2nd reef and boom vang. Spinnaker clutch is labeled Jib halyard but we use the mast winch for the jib and cleat it on the mast. With a furler, I would rather use the cabin clutch for the spinnaker.
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Starboard side inboard winch is for the main sheet,which has no clutch or cam cleat. The double clutch inboard is 1st reef and other is for the main halyard. Outside is the other traveler sheet on a cam cleat.

Both the main,1st reef and tack lines pass though tubes in the traveler end towers. Will get a picture of those next time I’m at the boat.
 

Hagar2sail

Member II
Thanks RC for the pictures. It is helpful to see how others have things setup to give us ideas. One thing we never did this year is try and set up the spinnaker that came with the boat. We don’t have a pole so I am guessing it is an asymmetric sail, but now I am wondering if I would need other control lines led aft as you have.
 

Hagar2sail

Member II
Well started to lay out the new deck hardware and have a few issues. The new clutches are much wider than the old ones, so although I might be able to pass three lines on the starboard side, the lines won't run fair to the clutches, and the winch angle might be more than lewmar recommends. Thinking of maybe leaving a double clutch set on the outboard rail and using a footblock to turn the line to the winch, though one of the grab rail supports is causing me issues there.

Also, looks like the cabin top might be reinforced in way of all the clutches and winches, as just outboard of the companionway hatch there is ~1/2" bump down in the fiberglass as the cabin top gets thicker, and the winches are all installed with just fender washers. It is a little hard to figure out as there seems to be glued foam on the cabin top. Does anyone else have any knowledge of how Ericson usually did things in these areas? I'm planning on installing a aluminum backer anyway, but I am curious. Once I take the hardware off I will know how thick the cabin top is, and that might give me some insight.

Christian, although I know you were saying you didn't like the Lewmar's because they didn't stay open, we went with them partially because of cost, and partially because I like the idea of the line not being subjected to a jaw. One thing I have noticed is it seems like you can open them all the way up with the handle 180 degrees and they stay open. Is this a later design? At least here on land, they seem to run without issue when opened.

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RCsailfast

Member II
Our 35-3 has tubes trough the pedestals at each end of the traveler. That’s how 3 clutches work on our starboard side. Can’t see it but there is 2 tubes on the starboard side.
Sorry for the construction picture, but the only one I have. Still working on rebidding the sea hood and beefing up the traveler. Looks like both of us have good projects to complete before splash day LOL
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Hardware thoughts

I am about to upgrade all of the clutches. Our factory install is that the thru bolts come down thru the coring and have fender washers on the inside. Nuts and lock washers. Excess thread is cut off flush, and the quarter inch foam is between those and the headliner fabric. I am going up in winch size to Lewmar 40ST's, and might add a layer of bi-ax, first, inside to spread the load a bit... just to be ultra conservative.

Are you going with the Lewmar D1 (standard) or the stronger-rated D2 ?
I am tentatively going to install the D2 version. The halyards should like that a lot and the other control lines won't care. (Our model has two spinnaker halyards, and of course the main and jib halyards)


Keep those words and pictures coming!

:)
 

Cory B

Member III
You are well underway with your re-rigging project, but just for comparison sake when I redid our boat I did the following:
On Port I have Main Halyard, Cunningham, Vang, and Outhaul,
On Starboard I have Main Sheet and First Reef. Outboard on starboard I have the Jib Halyard.

I left my spin halyards on the mast. If I really want to run one back I can just temporarily replace the 1st reef.

I used Garhauer clutches which look narrower than your Lewmars. I also replaced the turning blocks on deck - if you angle them a a little you can run the lines closer together running back to the cockpit and cram more lines through the gaps under the traveller.

Yes, I think the deck under the winches is reinforced as well. Ericson did a good job with that.

Good luck!
 
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kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
I’m thinking of removing the Barient from outboard stbd and placing it where the lewmar is. Then moving the main halyard to the port side of the mast. So the stbd winch would be used for the genoa halyard, main sheet and one reef, the port side would have the main halyard, spinnaker halyard, second reef and boom vang. This also requires new deck organizers, probably a stacked 2-2 on stbd and 3-2 on port giving me one free spot on each organizer for expansion/ issues.
Good luck! I went through something similar on my E38 last year when I installed new cheek blocks on the deck and clutches on the cabin top.

Port side I have the Jib Halyard, Port Spin Halyard, Topping Lift, Reef 1, Reef 2. I hardly ever need to touch these lines. I have both a triple and double clutch installed on the port side
Starboard side I have Main Halyard, Main Sheet, Starboard Spin Halyard, Boom Vang. Currently have a double clutch installed and looking to install another double clutch on this side, however due to the off center companionway and the traveler support mount location it really requires the clutch to be mounted next to the grab rail. The outer winch currently has the Main Halyard going to it. Not ideal. Another option is to try and reconfigure the lines through the deck organizer/check blocks to have the Main Sheet on the outside winch without the need for a clutch.

Similar to you the starboard winch is a pain to operate with the dodger installed.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?643-E38-New-Rigid-Vang-and-Deck-Organizer-(Cheek-Blocks)
 

Hagar2sail

Member II
I am about to upgrade all of the clutches. Our factory install is that the thru bolts come down thru the coring and have fender washers on the inside. Nuts and lock washers. Excess thread is cut off flush, and the quarter inch foam is between those and the headliner fabric. I am going up in winch size to Lewmar 40ST's, and might add a layer of bi-ax, first, inside to spread the load a bit... just to be ultra conservative.

Are you going with the Lewmar D1 (standard) or the stronger-rated D2 ?
I am tentatively going to install the D2 version. The halyards should like that a lot and the other control lines won't care. (Our model has two spinnaker halyards, and of course the main and jib halyards)


Keep those words and pictures coming!

:)
Yep, same as ours including the attached foam, so that sounds like factory standard to me. Once I take the clutches off I will know more about the deck thickness, looking like that might be a project for this Thursday. Depending on how it goes, I might try to remove core and slug the winch holes with epoxy, but I don't have any plans on upsizing. I did (briefly) think of putting some more cloth up there, but the projects are getting numerous so that will probably have to wait.

We went with the d2 clutches. Not much difference in cost, and no change in width (the one dimension I really could use relief on), they are according to
Lewmar's site about an inch longer, FWIW. Does anyone know what the original Schaefer clutch load ratings were? Seems like they were just so much smaller than all the modern offerings, it has to be somewhat related to capacity. Though almost all the modern clutches have some amount of fairlead on them, whereas from what I can tell the Schaefer's just let the line rub the side plate if it wanted.
 

Hagar2sail

Member II
Good luck! I went through something similar on my E38 last year when I installed new cheek blocks on the deck and clutches on the cabin top.

Port side I have the Jib Halyard, Port Spin Halyard, Topping Lift, Reef 1, Reef 2. I hardly ever need to touch these lines. I have both a triple and double clutch installed on the port side
Starboard side I have Main Halyard, Main Sheet, Starboard Spin Halyard, Boom Vang. Currently have a double clutch installed and looking to install another double clutch on this side, however due to the off center companionway and the traveler support mount location it really requires the clutch to be mounted next to the grab rail. The outer winch currently has the Main Halyard going to it. Not ideal. Another option is to try and reconfigure the lines through the deck organizer/check blocks to have the Main Sheet on the outside winch without the need for a clutch.

Similar to you the starboard winch is a pain to operate with the dodger installed.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/entry.php?643-E38-New-Rigid-Vang-and-Deck-Organizer-(Cheek-Blocks)
Yeah, running into additional challenges with the lower of the double organizers being the only ones rated for high load. I have found load calculators for sheet loads, but does anyone know how to figure out what an appropriate load rating is for the reefing lines? I haven't personally checked my boom yet, but as I understand it there is a reduction in there, so that should help out right?

Now I know why RC's boat has those funny pipes, 35-3's aren't well set up for a lot of lines lead aft with a dodger.
 

Kenneth K

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
Yeah, running into additional challenges with the lower of the double organizers being the only ones rated for high load.
Hagar,

Where did you find info about the load limit for the upper sheaves on your deck organizers? I'm adding Schaefer doubles to my deck now. Schaefer rates all their 3-series organizers at 1250# and their 5-series at 1950#, regardless of whether they are single or double layered. Doesn't really make sense though--obviously, the uppers would bend at a lower load limit.
 

Hagar2sail

Member II
Hagar,

Where did you find info about the load limit for the upper sheaves on your deck organizers? I'm adding Schaefer doubles to my deck now. Schaefer rates all their 3-series organizers at 1250# and their 5-series at 1950#, regardless of whether they are single or double layered. Doesn't really make sense though--obviously, the uppers would bend at a lower load limit.
In all honesty I have not found an exact number for Schaefer double deck organizers, but have concerns since they rate their 5 series double cheek block as 1750# capacity but do state explicitly with that product that the upper block only has a 350# rating. So kind of running with that a little I start to worry about the upper sheave capacity. For comparison Harken tells you that when you stack theirs you should take a 1/3 reduction of capacity on the upper organizer. Garhauer similar to Schaefer only rates their similar double organizer for overall load. So we are left with lots of questions huh?

I was hoping to replace Schaefer with Schaefer assuming it might be a one for one replacement, but now I am considering Harken because at least then I know where I stand.

Mostly concerned since on the port side I would have 2 halyards with constant tension on them which doesn’t leave me a lot left for my reefing lines if those occupy the other slots.
 

Hagar2sail

Member II
Maybe a further reduction

After replying I took a second look at Harken, they only recommend double stacking in way of a solid deck or cored deck with g10 insert. This makes me think that if I went for a double stacked organizer it would be very limited in line load...probably on the order of the #350 Schaefer listed on the cheek block.

Who knows...just my musings
 

kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
In all honesty I have not found an exact number for Schaefer double deck organizers, but have concerns since they rate their 5 series double cheek block as 1750# capacity but do state explicitly with that product that the upper block only has a 350# rating. So kind of running with that a little I start to worry about the upper sheave capacity. For comparison Harken tells you that when you stack theirs you should take a 1/3 reduction of capacity on the upper organizer. Garhauer similar to Schaefer only rates their similar double organizer for overall load. So we are left with lots of questions huh?

I was hoping to replace Schaefer with Schaefer assuming it might be a one for one replacement, but now I am considering Harken because at least then I know where I stand.

Mostly concerned since on the port side I would have 2 halyards with constant tension on them which doesn’t leave me a lot left for my reefing lines if those occupy the other slots.
I only have the topping lift and reef lines in the upper sheave, I’m using series 7 double cheek blocks and they are rated for 500lbs. I can’t imagine a reefing line exceeding that rating.
 
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