E 36C Rudder Removal

[erikwfab]

Does anyone have any experience removing the rudder on a 36C? The reason I ask is because I have noticed, by sound an increased amount of play in the rudder bearings or pintles while moored. Specifically the lower one, the sound of it thumping resonates through the hull and is lessened when you lock the rudder over about 15 degrees.
I am preparing to haul and paint the bottom and want to drop the rudder, and repair the rudder bushing or what I am calling the pintle. Sounds simple but I have not pulled this rudder and need to "get er done" in 4-5 days.

What I cant tell is if there is an upper pintle that would prevent the rudder from moving aft once the "upper bolt" and the 7 bolts of the tiller tang are removed.

 

[Brass Dragon]

36C rudder removal

There is no other attach point. The leading edge of the rudder is inset to the hull up to where you are pointing probably for reduced drag. According to the rudder drawing, the lower pin is bronze 1 inch diameter extending 1.25" from bottom of rudder. I dont have detail on the accepting fitting. There presumably is enough play in that fitting to allow the rudder to drop away from the hull slightly while lifting out of the bottom fitting.

 

[Brass Dragon]

on second thought, there might be more

I just found the drawing for the heel fitting which holds the rudder. It also shows matching 1 inch dia x 1.25" deep bore with no bushings or design wiggle room. You might find you have to drop the heel plate which is through-fastened to the skeg with several Toblin Bronze 3/8 inch dia rivets to get the rudder off. Worse, with the slop you currently have, it might come off but once you repair the slop, you might not get it on without taking the plate off. Think about it before you get too deep.

 

[Greg Ross]

Been there, done this on the I-31

I assume the 36C has a rudder fitted similar to the C-31 and the I-31. The text on your Image is very small, I think what I'm seeing is a tag noting an upper pintle. I am rather doubtful there's one there. Again looking at the image you are going to have to unbolt the Quadrant from the rudder to allow it to be raised. I have also assumed you have a binnacle/ wheel steering.

Here's the simple step by step process;
Rig a beam of some description above the rudder head, say off your pushpit and secure it so you'll be able to hang the rudder from it.
(Assume you have a hole thru the top of the rudder head for securing your temporary tiller fixture)
Rig a hanging line, fairly tight.
Remove the steering cables from the quadrant by unbolting the eye bolts.
Remove the nut from the single hinge bolt and using a drift remove the bolt.
From the ground lift on the rudder to clear the pin from the gudgeon.
That was the easy part.
Glyn Judson was able to de-clunk his rudder with a stip of teflon wrapped around the pin to take up the slop.
With my rudder the pin was worn oval with the smaller dimension being close to 0.90" by about 0.95", The gudgeon was also worn oval with a maximum dimension just over 1-1/8"
The pin on the rudder obviously needed to be made round, with a set of calipers set to the minimum dimension I went at the the high spots on the pin with a file. Gradually brought it down to round guaging with the calipers as I went.
I bought a series of good quality hole saws, 1-1/16", 1-1/8" and 1-3/16"
I fitted the smallest hole saw in a 3/8" drill and then taped on a couple of shims to the body of the drill so it would nest in the rudder relief in the hull and ride perpendicular with the surface of the gudgeon.
No centering drill bit is required for this application. I ran this cutter down to depth, 1" or whatever it was and then stepped up to the next size and then the next so that I had 100% new bore.
From my barn I brought out an assortment of potential bushings and discovered black ABS pipe (1" nominal) was a friction fit. cut a stub piece and pounded it in.
Next was to drift the rudder back into place for a trial fit. Once engaged I could still feel a bit of slop, popped the rudder out again and used a strip of plastic cut out of an Ice Cream container to put a single wrap on the pin.
Re-engaged the rudder and had what I considered a great fit. That was 6 years ago and although LAYLA is only sailed seasonally there's no appreciable wear or slop to date. Teflon sheet would be best for the running bushing. At whatever point I need to rebush I'm confident I can very easily replace the bushing(s)
What I considered a reasonably straight forward fix.

 

[Sid]

rudder worries

So, I did this just a few years ago in Venezuela, and a friend in Trinadad did his. I removed the rudder by lifting it up after taking the bolt out of the hinge. It took a line from the davits to the top of the rudder and 2 or 3 guys to guide it to the ground. The pin was oval but I was able to use a whole saw with out the centering drill to round it out. I took the shoe off and had a brass bushing made to fit the pin and had the shoe machined to fit the bushing. Worked very well. While in Trinadad we found another 36C and he had the same problem. He did the same as I accept instead of making a bushing he found a cutless bearing and, he thought ahead he put in 2 set screwse to hold the cutless bearing in case it hah to be replaced. He is very happy with his fix. It sounds like a lot of work but the only heavy work is the rudder, but it is a must fix. How ever you do it you will be very happy.

 

[Greg Ross]

Consumable bushing

LAYLA II spent her youth in Philadelphia, apparently used more like a cottage at dockside. I have to assume tidal/ river current chattered away at that rudder Gudgeon for 25 years before I relocated her to PEI. The way I looked at it my solution with the non-bronze bushing now set in the gudgeon I don't have bronze wearing on bronze any more, rather the plastic makes for a consumable and realtively "easy to replace" bushing. $40. vs trips to a machine shop and I have the three hole saws added to my tool collection!
But then Sid will likely get another 20 years out of his refit rudder too! Mine was a backyard DIY fix without removing the gudgeon.
One other possibility is a replacement Gudgeon if you want to contact me off line for phone number/ eMail info. This fellow and his brother have or had a Boatyard in Waukegan and had the last two unfinished Cape Bay (Ericson molds) I-31s' They have advertized these available parts on Craig's List once or twice as well. I would suspect the gudgeon pattern from the 36C would have been used by Ericson on the I-31 as well. Worth checking the dimensions anyway.
When I was there at their shop a few years ago I bought one of their quadrants (bronze casting) as a spare for my boat. They had pairs of the primary castings made from loaner parts from a local I-31 and had been in the process of finishing one boat.
Glyn Jusdson has a 6 foot piece of the bow off one of those two hulls that was recovered before it was scrapped. I have the bow sprit off the 2nd hull now being fitted on my boat as a replacement. That second hull if not already gone is destined to be scrapped as well. So beautiful, so sad!

A closer look at your image and I think maybe the gudgeon on the 36C is longer fore and aft than what is on the Independence 31, sorry.

 

[erikwfab]

Lower rudder bushing

Thanks to all for the advice on rudder removal. My plan next weekend is to remove the lower rudder shoe by driving out the eight 3/8" bronze rods that hold it to the keel. This will allow me to keep the rudder hung on the transom and take the shoe up to the machine shop. Should the rudder pintle or 1" rod require work I will consider dropping the rudder. I plan to true up the shoe bore and install a bushing made from Thordon if I can source a chunk in time. I will let you all know how I make out.

 

[Greg Ross]

Depending on the severity of "The Klunk"

If you've got noticable movement in the gudgeon you'll certainly have oval wear on both the pin and the bore in the gudgeon.
Assuming you've got wear on the rudder pin it has to be dealt with first so the bore of the new bushing can be sized. Best plan on dropping the rudder.
Good lucjk with it.

 

[erikwfab]

E36C Rudder Removal and New Bushing Installation

Here is the method I used to remove and repair the worn lower rudder pintle pin and shoe bore.

Removal;
I removed the rudder right after the boat was hauled, this particular yard uses a crane.
While the boat was still in the slings and the bottom cleaning was going on I unbolted the steering quadrant and removed the upper rudder bolt.
Right after the boat was landed, and the stands were in place I used the crane to remove the rudder.
A good nylon strap choked below the bolt gudgeon, leading forward was how I rigged it.
With a good strain on the crane you can remove the upper bolt, and when the rudder bolt bracket is free of the bolt tangs you can come up on the crane, use caution here because once the lower pintle pin clears the shoe (1-1/2") the rudder will swing aft, it wants to hang vertically and my guess is the rudder weighs 350 lbs.

Pin and Bushing Repair;
The lower rudder pin on my boat was worn almost a 1/16" and there appeared to be some type of bushing material present from a previous repair.
I took a hole saw and ran it over the pin removing the high spots and to establish a relativly round shape.
The wear on the rudder pin will be on the after side.
Using a collection of files, 2" strips of emery cloth and a caliper I was able to get the pin round again within about .30", took an hour.
Next I removed the lower bronze shoe from the keel, this is done by simply driving out eight 3/8" bronze dowels.
The shoe was taken over to the machine shop where is was bored out to 1-3/8" and a Thordon bushing was installed.

Yes the rudder pin is now 7/8" as opposed to the origional 1" diameter, I feel it is still strong enough and using Thordon as a bushing material it should wear before the pin, we'll see in another 3 years at the next haul and hopefully not sooner.

The shoe was reinstalled with fresh bedding compound and new 3/8" silicon bronze (alloy 510) rod.
The rudder lifted in the same manner as above, then it took 3 guys to push it forward and into the shoe bore, lowered, upper bolt installed and the steering quadrant bolted back up. The 5 bolts for the steering quadrant are 3/8"NC x 4-1/2" bronze, which is an odd size, McMaster Carr has 5"