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E25 cb handling issues under power

ggabe

New Member
Hello,
Just purchased a 1973 E25 cb. The boat came with a 9.9 outboard.
Took the boat out for the first time in 20-25 knot winds and moderate
chop. The boat was difficult to steer, heeled between 10 & 15 degrees and was almost impossible to bring into the wind. I didn't feel safe enough to motor out of the harbor so I never got the sails up. I have owned/sailed a lot of different boats and don't remember ever having such difficulties under power. I am afraid the boat would be out of control in even moderately stormy conditions. The weather is supposed to be better tomorrow, hope to try her out under sail. Hopefully it sails better than it powers although someone who sailed with the previous owner told me it didn't. Any thoughts/experiences with this model ?
 

Wysailer

Member II
Hello,
Just purchased a 1973 E25 cb. The boat came with a 9.9 outboard.
Took the boat out for the first time in 20-25 knot winds and moderate
chop. The boat was difficult to steer, heeled between 10 & 15 degrees and was almost impossible to bring into the wind. I didn't feel safe enough to motor out of the harbor so I never got the sails up. I have owned/sailed a lot of different boats and don't remember ever having such difficulties under power. I am afraid the boat would be out of control in even moderately stormy conditions. The weather is supposed to be better tomorrow, hope to try her out under sail. Hopefully it sails better than it powers although someone who sailed with the previous owner told me it didn't. Any thoughts/experiences with this model ?

I just purchased a E 25 cb as well, although i won't get to try it out till next season here in WY. I will be interested in reading of your experiences as I prepare this one over the winter and get ready for next season.

Maybe we can compare notes along the way.

Scott
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
While 20 kts is a lot of breeze, a real 10 hp engine should still drive the boat thru it with ease.
My experiences with OB engines are with a Johnson 6 two-stroke on my 20' boat, and I doubt that it put out over 4 honest hp on a good day.
Later I had a Honda 10 which was replaced by a Yamaha 10 HiThrust on our 26 footer. That engine would drive a 4K displ. boat thru about anything.

Tell us more about this engine on your boat. Make and year, long shaft, rated hp, etc.

Thanks,
Loren
 

VolvoEricson

Junior Member
Lower your centerboard some. I have an 8 hp and have no problems and have been lots of soup over the years.

Rob Hessenius
 

wolly bugger

Member II
E25 under power

Hi ggabe and welcome to the site. I also had a similar experience the first time with my E25. I took a friend out to try it and mostly to make sure the boat would float before the first mate came aboard. We threw a lunch bag, rain gear and some tools in the cabin and went out. I was motoring so I didn't think I would need the centerboard. After being blown off course a few times, I took the centerboard down. It did help, but we still needed to pay close attention to stay on course. Since then, more gear has made its way on board and I've been in much worse conditions with much better results. Under power, the boat has a tendency to squat a bit, having some weight forward helps tracking much better. Move/add some stuff under the v-berth and it will feel much better.
Hope this will help
 

John Cyr

Member II
The E25 is very tender up to about 15 degrees, beyond that she stiffens up quite a bit but is still easy to overpower. I suspect that if you were heeling that much without any sails set at all then you had a good bit more than 20-25kts of wind. If you couldnt get her head to wind under power than the board wasnt down all the way and/or you have a very dirty bottom. 25kts true calls for a double reefed main and working jib or blade. You will get a wet and exciting ride even still.
 

ignacio

Member III
Blogs Author
Engine

I'd suggest taking a close look at the engine. I have an E27 that has a 1997 Johnson 9.9HP 2-stroke Outboard. It look about 20+ knots of wind for me to figure out that I didn't have enough power to go into the wind without any sails up. Turns out that one of my cyclinders wasn't firing, and I was later able to confirm it when I put new plugs in, and after a few more times heading out, one of them showed signs of regular use, and the other looked brand new. Through some troubleshooting, I finally discovered that the problem was the power pack. Once that was replaced, she's been just fine.

Hello,
Just purchased a 1973 E25 cb. The boat came with a 9.9 outboard.
Took the boat out for the first time in 20-25 knot winds and moderate
chop. The boat was difficult to steer, heeled between 10 & 15 degrees and was almost impossible to bring into the wind. I didn't feel safe enough to motor out of the harbor so I never got the sails up. I have owned/sailed a lot of different boats and don't remember ever having such difficulties under power. I am afraid the boat would be out of control in even moderately stormy conditions. The weather is supposed to be better tomorrow, hope to try her out under sail. Hopefully it sails better than it powers although someone who sailed with the previous owner told me it didn't. Any thoughts/experiences with this model ?
 

davisr

Member III
Someone on this forum (I can't remember who), about 6 months ago said that there should be 1HP for every 500 lbs displacement. The E25 cb has a listed displacement of 5400 lbs. Some say, however, that when fully outfitted she is more in the neighborhood of 7,000 lbs. That would mean that a 14HP motor would be appropriate. Since there is no such thing as a 14HP, one would have to take one step up to a 15HP. Interestingly, the original E25 literature lists 15HP as the max sized motor for this vessel. A 15HP motor is clearly not needed most of the time. There are occasions, however, when it would probably be beneficial to have this extra muscle.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
all rated HP is not the same

Someone on this forum (I can't remember who), about 6 months ago said that there should be 1HP for every 500 lbs displacement. The E25 cb has a listed displacement of 5400 lbs. Some say, however, that when fully outfitted she is more in the neighborhood of 7,000 lbs. That would mean that a 14HP motor would be appropriate. Since there is no such thing as a 14HP, one would have to take one step up to a 15HP. Interestingly, the original E25 literature lists 15HP as the max sized motor for this vessel. A 15HP motor is clearly not needed most of the time. There are occasions, however, when it would probably be beneficial to have this extra muscle.

A small historical note, if I may... in the late 70's the Honda 4-stroke was gaining a foothold in the fishing market around here, but the sailboat market for motors in the 10 to 15 hp range was somewhat dominated by the OMC Johnson "Sailmaster". I do believe it was quite overrated in its hp output at "15 hp."
As the 4-strokes came into greater use in the earlier 80's and Yamaha entered the displacement hull market (hey, that's us!) with their 3-to-1 reduction gear HiThrust ten hp, a lot of us really found out what 10 horsepower could really do... As I recall, it was like comparing race horses to Clydsdales. :)

Long story shorter, in the 70's I know that the SailMaster looked great with a nice vinyl emblem of a sailboat on it, but it not as powerful as it needed to be and should have been.

Try a "modern" 4 stroke. You might be amazed at the difference.

Loren

ps: edit: I have not owned a big center-boarder and totally missed that excellent advice to keep the board down in waves and chop...
 
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wolly bugger

Member II
A small historical note, if I may... in the late 70's the Honda 4-stroke was gaining a foothold in the fishing market around here, but the sailboat market for motors in the 10 to 15 hp range was somewhat dominated by the OMC Johnson "Sailmaster". I do believe it was quite overrated in its hp output at "15 hp."
As the 4-strokes came into greater use in the earlier 80's and Yamaha entered the displacement hull market (hey, that's us!) with their 3-to-1 reduction gear HiThrust ten hp, a lot of us really found out what 10 horsepower could really do... As I recall, it was like comparing race horses to Clydsdales. :)

Long story shorter, in the 70's I know that the SailMaster looked great with a nice vinyl emblem of a sailboat on it, but it not as powerful as it needed to be and should have been.

Try a "modern" 4 stroke. You might be amazed at the difference.

Loren

This year I replace the mid '80 15 HP 2 stroke that came with the boat with a 4 strokes yamaha hi trust 8HP. I definitely feel that I have more power with the new engine. In choppy sea the 8 HP work much harder but will keep the speed better then the 15 hp did. I think all the difference is in the prop really low pitch. If you like your engine you can try to find a different prop with lower pitch.
 
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sleather

Sustaining Member
A small historical note, if I may... in the late 70's the Honda 4-stroke was gaining a foothold in the fishing market around here, but the sailboat market for motors in the 10 to 15 hp range was somewhat dominated by the OMC Johnson "Sailmaster". I do believe it was quite overrated in its hp output at "15 hp."

As the 4-strokes came into greater use in the earlier 80's and Yamaha entered the displacement hull market (hey, that's us!) with their 3-to-1 reduction gear HiThrust ten hp, a lot of us really found out what 10 horsepower could really do... As I recall, it was like comparing race horses to Clydsdales. :)

Try a "modern" 4 stroke. You might be amazed at the difference.

My '79 E23 came with one of those "ancient " Honda 10's and served me well for 20 years. I replaced it with a Honda 8 which turned out to be exactly the same motor(different rating system ;)). Never have had a problem in ANY kind of wind(40+), except for occasional cavitation, but it is amazing how much a sailboat does heel under bare poles.

The 23 has a long shallow keel, where the centerboard lives, that gives it excellent tracking while motoring, even with the board up.
 
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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Steve,
I should have re-cast that sentence as it was not as clear as intended...
I was saying the the two strokes were the "ancient" technology for our displacement hulls. The Honda was the first wave of the future, as it were.

Loren
 

sleather

Sustaining Member
Steve,
I should have re-cast that sentence as it was not as clear as intended...
I was saying the the two strokes were the "ancient" technology for our displacement hulls. The Honda was the first wave of the future, as it were.

Loren

Loren, I only added ancient for effect, your statement was right on, 31 years in the boating industry is ancient. :egrin:

I bought a 2001 Mercury 90 4 stroke for my powerboat and the power head was Yamaha. :confused:

Honda sure got the jump on that 4-stroke program.

http://marine.honda.com/company/aboutus

History

1964 First Honda four-stroke outboard introduced.


1967 First Honda outboard introduced in the U.S.


1985 Honda has the first full line of four-strokes for customers to choose from.
 

John Cyr

Member II
In my response to the original query above I assumed that the engine involved was producing up to its rated power so the cb position and bottom condition would be suspect. Obviously if the engine is not producing to spec than that is a major factor. FWIW I had one of those 9.9 Sailmasters discussed above on my boat for many years and loved it! It would push her to hull speed in moderate conditions at just above half throttle, any more and it would just suck the stern down and she would squat and slow down (also as discussed above) There was plenty of power in reserve when necessary (I was told by the OMC dealer back then that the 9.9 and 15 sailmasters were actually the same with the exception of carb size. (?)) (Alas I lost that motor when my boat was looted while on a mooring many years ago)
The key factor to any outboard on a relatively heavy displacement hull (ie an E25) is prop selection, the sailmaster was succesful due to its relatively large diameter and flat pitch prop. That is a "power" vice a "speed" prop.
I guess the original poster needs to weigh back in with more facts so we can all chew on this some more :egrin:
 

davisr

Member III
John,

Since you mentioned props . . . based on your experience, what do you think about the dual-thrust props that are available for Yamaha "T" models (high-thrust) and F models (standard)? Attached is a prop list with diameter and pitch options.

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/outboard/products/subcathome/4/home.aspx

Thanks,
Roscoe

P.S. I ask because at some point I will want to upgrade from the 1983 Sailmaster 7.5.
 

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John Cyr

Member II
Short answer to your question Roscoe is I dont know. (not much of an answer, sorry:esad:) This is relatively new technology and I havent dug into it in a number of years. Joe Williams really is the research king when it comes to our boats. Dont know if he has dug into this area or not.
From a basic technical aspect a four stroke engine would generally have a lower RPM power band then a comparable two stroke (this is good, more torque at lower RPM) Way back when when I was really into this I remember the early 4 stroke outboards were physically much larger than comparable 2 strokes but I would guess they have been slimmed down by now (they were also frightfully more expensive at that time) Generally accepted traditional prop theory calls for as large a diameter prop as will physically fit without cavitation and a pitch measurement a good bit less than the diameter for a "power" prop. I dont know if this dual thrust stuff is real or just sales hype.
 

davisr

Member III
Thanks John. I just did a little digging around and found a thread on another forum where the some of these very questions are addressed concerning the Yamaha F9.9, the T9.9, and the various props available. One of the posts also contains links to two different prop-size calculator programs.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2577299


I also found this description of the dual-thrust prop from a vendor:

Yamaha’s Dual Thrust propellers are another answer for heavy loads such as sailboats, pontoons, and other high-displacement craft…really any boat requiring that extra bit of ‘muscle’. The unique, patented design directs the exhaust flow away from the blades, reducing ventilation so your blades are cutting through “clean water”. The result? High efficiency, better acceleration, more control, providing up to 70% more thrust in reverse and 60% more in forward than other three blade propellers. Primarily designed for Yamaha's High Thrust model outboards, they'll fit and provide benefits to a myriad of Yamaha outboards (see links below). There’s even a large-diameter, low-pitch version (14d x 11p), designed especially for use with Yamaha’s High Thrust T50 and T60 models.
 

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