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E25 galley sink gate valve

klb67pgh

Member I
I post this mostly out of curiosity. Below are pics of the gate valve and bronze thru hull that connect my E25 galley sink to whatever body of water she is floating in. Does this look original? Do you think the gate valve stem and perhaps the guts might have been replaced? Did it come in 1978 with the snazzy splatter paint scheme? The sink/valve were unused for at least the last 5 years. I hauled out on Sunday for the winter and today turned the valve for the first time and it easily opened and closed, and allowed the sink to drain onto my driveway just fine. It never leaked for me (while closed) and presumably not for my prior owner. I planned to open the valve while the boat was still in the water but hovering over the trailer in case of a catastrophe, but in my excitement to get the boat loaded, mast down, etc. I simply forgot to test it out. I know the best course is to remove the valve and the thu hull and spend the money on a new thru hull and modern seacock. I wonder if the status quo would do for a full 2021 season (I bought the boat this August). I couldn't really get a good look at it until I removed the panel that improves access to this valve versus just opening the door, and was surprised how little corrosion is there and how easy the valve turned. The thru hull does have a bit of a pink hue to me which could be an issue. I guess I'm asking if the thought of using this for a year is plausible or stupid. I have bent standing rigging hardware that I must address, so I am trying to prioritize winter project funds (and perhaps learn if this is how they came from Ericson in 78).

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Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
My previous boat was from an equally prestigious builder, Hinterhoeller Yachts. Built in 1981 it had a few gate valves, and altho they worked fine, I replaced them with bronze ball valves in the mid/late 80's.
My council, if it were requested or wanted, would be to replace with true seacocks, in bronze or Marelon.
Gate valves were the norm in the 60's and 70's on most boat, AFAIK.
Sometimes the "good old days" were almost as good as we like to imagine, but in this case the newer product really is far far superior.

As an economical solution, you could put bronze ball valves on those bronze thruhulls. Just be REAL sure that the thread type matches.
 

nquigley

Member III
My previous boat was from an equally prestigious builder, Hinterhoeller Yachts. Built in 1981 it had a few gate valves, and altho they worked fine, I replaced them with bronze ball valves in the mid/late 80's.
My council, if it were requested or wanted, would be to replace with true seacocks, in bronze or Marelon.
Gate valves were the norm in the 60's and 70's on most boat, AFAIK.
Sometimes the "good old days" were almost as good as we like to imagine, but in this case the newer product really is far far superior.

As an economical solution, you could put bronze ball valves on those bronze thruhulls. Just be REAL sure that the thread type matches.
+1 on what Loren said.
A few observations on your set-up
- the thread on your thru-hull stem looks like the US standard, NPT, style - check before ordering a seacock (most of which are available in NPT and in the EU metric style). It looks like the upper tail fitting is threaded and of the same diameter as the thru-hull step. Is so, close the tap, remove the hose clamp and hose (carefully - is closed tap leaking?), clean the threads with a brass brush and then see if a cheap brass NPT-threaded fitting of the matching OD (from Home Depot, Lowes, etc) screws nicely onto that tail - maybe wrap thread with a little plumbers thread tape to help it go on smoothly. Then you'll know if you can order a seacock with NPT threads, and you'll know what internal diameter you need in the seacock (will be the same at top and bottom).
- when you install a seacock, it looks like, if you're unlucky, the lever in the closed position may contact the blue wall beside your installation, preventing complete closure of the ball-valve - there are work-arounds that we can discuss later.
- according to ABYC, all hose connections below the waterline need to have a pair of hose clamps
- I would coat the plywood support pad with several applications of epoxy - to prevent water penetrating and softening that base

I just replaced some 35-yo Forespar Marlon seacocks with TruDesign ones from GEMlux - I can highly recommend this design. I screwed new seacocks onto existing thru-hulls (those things we're going to come out in the time I had available on the hard). There's no reason why a bronze thru-hull and a fiber-reinforced 'plastic' seacock would not be a good combination.
Of course, you can go with a nice bronze ball-valve seacock. - read up on bronze alloy composition - don't buy from the cheap end of the spectrum.
 

bigd14

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
Be sure to replace that clear hose with proper wire reinforced hose as well, and use a pipe to hose adapter and double clamp everything below the waterline. The hose concerns me more than the gate valve!I agree you should replace the gate valve with a better system. You could probably use a flange adapter with the existing thru hull (use a backing plate as well) and ball valve instead of a full-fledged seacock. Maine Sail has all you need to know here: https://marinehowto.com/category/plumbing/

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Kenneth K

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
I know the best course is to remove the valve and the thu hull and spend the money on a new thru hull and modern seacock. ....... I wonder if the status quo would do for a full 2021 season..... I guess I'm asking if the thought of using this for a year is plausible or stupid.

You already stated the long-term solution (replacement with a modern valve).

As to the rest of question: If there is no leak below the valve, and if the valve seats fully in the closed position (shuts off the through-hull), opens sufficiently to drain your sink, and (perhaps most importantly) moves between those two positions without much friction or binding, then the valve is probably good for several more years. It's just an old and out-of-fashion valve. Many, many homes have valves like this that are over 50 years old and have to constantly withstand 40-60psi water pressure.

As others pointed out, a better hose, dual hose clamps, and waterproofing of that plywood backing plate may be more pressing concerns than the valve itself.
 
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Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
There's no reason why a bronze thru-hull and a fiber-reinforced 'plastic' seacock would not be a good combination.
I don't know what Forespar says about this, but I know from experience that you don't want to put a metal valve on a non-reinforced plastic thruhull. I wouldn't do it with Marelon either..

It was a Hunter 40 in a squall in the Upper Bay of the NY harbor back in the early 90s. It was probably bad seamanship, but we hadn't posted a lookout on the thruhulls. We took on 1000 -2000 gallons of water before we found it and got it capped. Then it was a lot of hand pumping.
 

gabriel

Member III
If its not leaking past the valve stem yet i would definitely use it another year but plan on replacing it sooner rather than later.

i have an e25 with the same valve and yours looks oem even though the paint doesn't.
 

nquigley

Member III
+1 on what Loren said.
A few observations on your set-up
- the thread on your thru-hull stem looks like the US standard, NPT, style - check before ordering a seacock (most of which are available in NPT and in the EU metric style). It looks like the upper tail fitting is threaded and of the same diameter as the thru-hull step. Is so, close the tap, remove the hose clamp and hose (carefully - is closed tap leaking?), clean the threads with a brass brush and then see if a cheap brass NPT-threaded fitting of the matching OD (from Home Depot, Lowes, etc) screws nicely onto that tail - maybe wrap thread with a little plumbers thread tape to help it go on smoothly. Then you'll know if you can order a seacock with NPT threads, and you'll know what internal diameter you need in the seacock (will be the same at top and bottom).
- when you install a seacock, it looks like, if you're unlucky, the lever in the closed position may contact the blue wall beside your installation, preventing complete closure of the ball-valve - there are work-arounds that we can discuss later.
- according to ABYC, all hose connections below the waterline need to have a pair of hose clamps
- I would coat the plywood support pad with several applications of epoxy - to prevent water penetrating and softening that base

I just replaced some 35-yo Forespar Marlon seacocks with TruDesign ones from GEMlux - I can highly recommend this design. I screwed new seacocks onto existing thru-hulls (those things we're going to come out in the time I had available on the hard). There's no reason why a bronze thru-hull and a fiber-reinforced 'plastic' seacock would not be a good combination.
Of course, you can go with a nice bronze ball-valve seacock. - read up on bronze alloy composition - don't buy from the cheap end of the spectrum.
CORRECTION - the standard US thread type for through-hulls and seacocks is NPS (National Pipe Standard), not as I indicated, 'NPT' (National Pipe Tapered).
 

klb67pgh

Member I
If its not leaking past the valve stem yet i would definitely use it another year but plan on replacing it sooner rather than later.

i have an e25 with the same valve and yours looks oem even though the paint doesn't.

Gabriel - do you use your sink with this type of valve? Do you open and close it fairly regularly, successfully?

All - thanks for the comments. The valve was closed when I got the boat (and for the prior 5 years, at least, probably much longer) and I left it that way until now. Is it fair to say this type of valve would leak out of or around the stem if the seals were bad? That was my thought. Again - I wish I tested it as I intended, on the water right before haul out.

I presumed based on a quick inspection that the valve would be crusty and I didn't trust it to open it on the water. Upon closer inspection now, it appears to be in good condition for its age.

Before I use the existing valve or any new seacock and thru-hull, I will get new hose and clamps. I already replaced the tank to hand pump hose and just used a bucket in the sink to get us a handwashing option through September. I will also close the valve/new seacock when not in use next year.

WHEN I replace it, this year or later (and I acknowledge it's relatively cheap insurance to replace it all), space will be an issue, and I am likely to go with the most slender valve option - that's probably a new bronze thru-hull and new bronze seacock - TBD on whether to incorporate the independent flange detailed on Roscoe's thru-hull replacement analysis. Given its freshwater seasonal use, I see the independent flange as a luxury that may be unnecessary for current or future me.
 
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gabriel

Member III
Gabriel - do you use your sink with this type of valve? Do you open and close it fairly regularly, successfully?

All - thanks for the comments. The valve was closed when I got the boat (and for the prior 5 years, at least, probably much longer) and I left it that way until now. Is it fair to say this type of valve would leak out of or around the stem if the seals were bad? That was my thought. Again - I wish I tested it as I intended, on the water right before haul out.

I presumed based on a quick inspection that the valve would be crusty and I didn't trust it to open it on the water. Upon closer inspection now, it appears to be in good condition for its age.

Before I use the existing valve or any new seacock and thru-hull, I will get new hose and clamps. I already replaced the tank to hand pump hose and just used a bucket in the sink to get us a handwashing option through September. I will also close the valve/new seacock when not in use next year.

WHEN I replace it, this year or later (and I acknowledge it's relatively cheap insurance to replace it all), space will be an issue, and I am likely to go with the most slender valve option - that's probably a new bronze thru-hull and new bronze seacock - TBD on whether to incorporate the independent flange detailed on Roscoe's thru-hull replacement analysis. Given its freshwater seasonal use, I see the independent flange as a luxury that may be unnecessary for current or future me.
I just got my boat into the water this summer after a 2 year rehab but yes, ive been opening and closing it successfully. Make sure not to ever over tighten!

As far as the replacement here’s some advice based on my experience replacing the 1-1/4” waste valve.

Go with the Groco seacock with built-in valve and definitely don’t attach the seacock by thru bolting it the way Roscoe did—use Grocos backing PL instead, it will make things a lot easier for you.

For filling the gap between backing plate hull, instead of mixing & thickening my own epoxy i bought a tube (west systems) that mixes as you squeeze it out with a regular caulking gun and used that...very clean and handing for putting epoxy right where you need it.

put a good amount of teflon tape (i did 6 turns with heavy duty teflon tape) on the thru hull straight threads or they will leak. Ask me how i know lol.

good luck!

PS dont worry about thread type too much as all the thru hulls are straight thread and the seacocks only accept straight thread on ‘bottom’. and tapered on ‘top’.
 

mjsouleman

Member III
Moderator
After reviewing cost to replace thru-valves and seacocks this winter, I made the following choice for the sink

Marelon fittings
949.858.8820
sink
seacock
0.75"

Part Number: 904010

MF 849 PTFE Seacock .75"
1$73.95
sink
thru-hull
0.75"

CF 251 .75" Thru-Hull
Item Number: 906012
1$20.00
sink
backing plate
0.75 "

backing-plate 0.75
BP-0.75
1$30.00

Mark "Souleman" Soule
 

gabriel

Member III
Im curious. Why did you choose plastic over bronze?

Originally i had also chosen plastic because i thought they would be cheaper...they weren’t.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Im curious. Why did you choose plastic over bronze?

Originally i had also chosen plastic because i thought they would be cheaper...they weren’t.
One observation -- sometimes people use the word "plastic" for valves when they really are referring to the Forespar Marelon product. This is a fiber reinforced material, similar to your hull. Your hull is also "FRP" or fiber reinforced plastic, and it's the fiber that makes it so strong.
There are lots of inexpensive cast plastic valves, and they really *are* solid plastic. We have those in our drinking water manifold, for instance.
 

olsenjohn

John Olsen
Blogs Author
Just a friendly observation but the picture shows what appears to be a mushroom head design. My 1973 E25 has flush through hulls with the fiberglass hull having molded recesses to fit them. I thought all the E25 were like that. You may find when you pull it out that someone replaced it with the incorrect kind, and as a result find a bunch of caulk or something filling the molded recess under it. Perhaps not, maybe Ericson changed it as the years went by, or the picture is tricking my eye.

Additionally, if the hull is molded for the flush through hull you will find that the backing plate will not lay flat because of it. There will be a hump inside the hull. So you will need to use some thickened epoxy and fiberglass to build it up to get the plate to lay flat. This is trickier than it looks as you have to ensure that the backing plate is positioned and hardens so that the through hull passes through it at 90 degrees all around. Otherwise when you start to tighten stuff up for final install the through hull will be cocked at an angle. When I did mine I coated the through hull with mold release wax like crazy and then actually tightened up the assembly and let it cure. Then disassembled again.

If it was me I would put the flush type back in as was original. I replaced all of mine and used bronze hardware throughout. Buck Algonquin sells the flush type as exact replacement.

Oh, and yes, they came with gate valves originally. The original sales brochure proudly states "bronze gate valves".
 
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mjsouleman

Member III
Moderator
Gabriel,
Loren correctly explained my decision in his observation. John's observation about hull curvature is also correct and the importance of adding a backing plate. I used a generous amount of the West System SIX10 epoxy resin and hardener to bond the backing plate to a sanded and clean hull.
surface.

Mark "Souleman" Soule
 

klb67pgh

Member I
I thought I'd update this thread with what I found, in case it helps others. With my wife's help under the boat holding the thru-hull, I fairly easily unscrewed the gate valve and removed everything from the boat. I was surprised to find that little, if any, goop was applied to the thru-hull. The hull surface was flat clean gelcoat under the thru-hull. I see no evidence that this ever leaked - the wood plywood backing plate/spacer is still in good shape (it wasn't adhered to the hull either). Just a bit of wire brushing cleaned up the surface of the thru-hull for better inspection. The valve is a bit crusty inside, but would clean up. I'm going to replace it and the sink drain hose for sure. I may also replace the thru-hull even though this one looks like it has lots of life left. The boat only lived in salt water for a few years and had an off season out of the water for all of its life. I should have measured it, but I would say the hull is at least 1/4" thick at the thru-hull, perhaps 3/8". Probably not 1/2".

I'm leaning towards a flanged Groco or Buck Algonquin seacock.

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