E26 E25+ E28+ E30+ - lee helm

[BDEidson]

I have a 1988 ERicson 26, with new main (full batten and loose foot) and RF genoa (135%). I've been dealing with lee helm and was wondering if any of the other owners of fractionally-rigged boats have found the same. Or anyone else for that matter, who has experience fixing lee helm.

I followed the rig tuning instructions as best possible from this site, but I"m going to tackle it again this weekend. I have one more hole available on the link plates attaching my RF drum--that should lenghthen my headstay about an inch and between that and tightening my backstay, i'm hoping that will help move the COE back.

Any thoughts and recommendations will be very helpful -

Thanks,

Bill

 

[Gary G]

I don't experience lee helm on my E28+ when things get overpowered with my 130% and full main. The boat rounds up to weather if there's too much main out. I'd be interested to know what kind of wind you expereince lee helm in? Also, is the main sheet eased way out and traveller down (maybe to the point of luffing) when this happens? If that's the case perhaps reefing the main instead will help balance the rig and eliminate the lee helm.

 

[toddster]

Hmm... I've mainly experienced lee helm on my Hobie cat, which is a much more fluid rig. Solution: increase mast rake in higher winds and reef next time, darn it!

There has been only only one lee helm incident on my Ericson. That was the time I forgot to disconnect the "fixed topping lift (?)" when I hoisted the sails. It's a short cable pigtailed on to the back stay. Plus the boat was rigged with a weird head sail that the PO must have got on craigslist. So, a gust came a long, I tried to ease the sheet, and the boom yanked on the back-stay and we heeled waaaay over and headed off. Come to think of it, I think she headed up again as soon as the rudder popped out of the water.

 

[BDEidson]

Thanks for the quick response, guys -

I do reef - quite often, actually - but still the lee helm. I'm hoping the last hole on link plates give me enough length on the headstay to give mast more rake.

I know the rigging instructions advise against it, but do you end up with some bend in the mast when you tighten down your backstay?


Bill

 

[toddster]

Well, the H16 is a very different animal. For one thing, you re-step the mast every time you go out. No back stay and the jib halyard effectively acts as the forestay. So to some extent you can fine-tune as you go. But you have to reef at the dock, which I tend not to do when I should.

That stout short little mast won't bend much under any force I can put on it with the halyard. I'm not sure how directly applicable the experience would be to a bigger monohull. In lighter winds, I need to decrease the rake again, or it starts self-tacking when I don't want it to.

 

[BDEidson]

I don't experience lee helm on my E28+ when things get overpowered with my 130% and full main. The boat rounds up to weather if there's too much main out. I'd be interested to know what kind of wind you expereince lee helm in? Also, is the main sheet eased way out and traveller down (maybe to the point of luffing) when this happens? If that's the case perhaps reefing the main instead will help balance the rig and eliminate the lee helm.

Gary - I'll have to take a more careful look at sail set this weekend. However, my impression is that the lee helm occurs primarily on a reach, less so on a beat. It even happend last weekend when i was sailing with just the main up - a situation you would normally think lead to weather helm. It was quite windy, and i had the main up without a reef, the boat flew along nicely as far as speed (reaching and running). When I decided to reef the main and pull out a reefed genny, the lee helm became obvious - just before i left the cockpit to reef the main, the the tiller slipped out of the tiller pilot and the boat began to round to lee. I caught it in time before gybing.

Do you ever sail under main alone? If so, how does your 28+ handle? I find that boat is generally tough to tack. I'll go through the tack, but when i go to trim in, the boat wants to head into irons. To successfully tack with just the main, i have swing all the way across to a beam or almost broad reach, let out the sail, slowly pick up speed, and then trim up to say a beam reach. I would think that fractionally rigged boats like ours should sail relatively well under main alone.

 

[BDEidson]

Well, the H16 is a very different animal. For one thing, you re-step the mast every time you go out. No back stay and the jib halyard effectively acts as the forestay. So to some extent you can fine-tune as you go. But you have to reef at the dock, which I tend not to do when I should.

That stout short little mast won't bend much under any force I can put on it with the halyard. I'm not sure how directly applicable the experience would be to a bigger monohull. In lighter winds, I need to decrease the rake again, or it starts self-tacking when I don't want it to.

Yes, the H16 sure is a different animal. We had one for years and it was a lot of fun. It too had lee helm - for all the reasons you mentioned. But what a blast.

 

[Seth]

Lee helm

This is very unusual-I would also look at how the boat is loaded- do you have excess weight in the stern of the boat?

As for reefing-it is the right thing to do if overpowered, but I will not ever remove lee helm, it may reduce weather helm, but never the reverse. So, reef when you need to, but it has nothing to do with what you are describing.

As for your question about backstay-it fine to have some bend in the mast-it will help flatten the main if it is too full.

The 2 big things which would affect the issue of wether/lee helm are mast rake and loading.

Still, what you are describing seems really wrong- is it the same on both tacks? This is a critical question. If it happens more on one tack and not the other, I would be looking at the rudder and/or keel for damage or somehow they got sanded such that one side is flatter than the other.

Check to see if your rudder shaft is not bent, or if there are differences on each side of the keel or rudder.

If the cause of this is due to something underwater, it should be worse on one tack...

Good luck,

 

[BDEidson]

This is very unusual-I would also look at how the boat is loaded- do you have excess weight in the stern of the boat?

As for reefing-it is the right thing to do if overpowered, but I will not ever remove lee helm, it may reduce weather helm, but never the reverse. So, reef when you need to, but it has nothing to do with what you are describing.

As for your question about backstay-it fine to have some bend in the mast-it will help flatten the main if it is too full.

The 2 big things which would affect the issue of wether/lee helm are mast rake and loading.

Still, what you are describing seems really wrong- is it the same on both tacks? This is a critical question. If it happens more on one tack and not the other, I would be looking at the rudder and/or keel for damage or somehow they got sanded such that one side is flatter than the other.

Check to see if your rudder shaft is not bent, or if there are differences on each side of the keel or rudder.

If the cause of this is due to something underwater, it should be worse on one tack...

Good luck,

Thanks, Seth - I will have to pay close attention this weekend and see if there is any difference from one tack to the next. Generally, the boat is closest to neutral on a beat, this problem is more evident on a reach. I've only used the boat with the new sails I bought for it and they are full batten, loose footed. It may be that the cut is a bit different. Am i correct in approaching the boat this way....


* Lengthen headstay the last hole in link plate
* Tighten backstay and shrouds.
* note the aft lower stays are quite loose as outlined in the tuning guide for E26 on this site - assume i leave those loose.
* I have not made much use of the backstay adjuster, but if i feel lee helm, i assume now i should sock that down, see if that any impact.

From what i've been reading, it sounds like i should default setting main to more power.....(ease outhaul, halyard tension)

You mentioned loading as a factor - is lee helm typically a a matter of too much weight in the stern or bow?

Thoughts?

 

[Seth]

Well..........

Thanks, Seth - I will have to pay close attention this weekend and see if there is any difference from one tack to the next. Generally, the boat is closest to neutral on a beat, this problem is more evident on a reach. I've only used the boat with the new sails I bought for it and they are full batten, loose footed. It may be that the cut is a bit different. Am i correct in approaching the boat this way....The "cut" of the sails should not have any significant impact on what is happening, and the fact that you see this more on a reach seems more like the mainsail is under-trimmed relative to the genoa..Does this happen even in windy conditions or just in lighter air?


* Lengthen headstay the last hole in link plateOK
* Tighten backstay and shrouds.OK
* note the aft lower stays are quite loose as outlined in the tuning guide for E26 on this site - assume i leave those loose. They should be a bit looser, but not totally loose. When you are sailing close hauled, sight up the mainsail track from the windward side. You should not see any sag in the mast to leeward where the lowers attach to the mast. If you do, they are too loose. The mast should be in column all the way up
* I have not made much use of the backstay adjuster, but if i feel lee helm, i assume now i should sock that down, see if that any impact.Tightening the backstay will reduce weather helm, not the other way around. The reason is that tightening the backstay will flatten the sail, which will depower it, and reduce weather helm. This is not the solution to your problem, but is a proper tool for adjusting the power you have for any given condition

From what i've been reading, it sounds like i should default setting main to more power.....(ease outhaul, halyard tension)-sort of, but your problem seems to be something way above and beyond these kinds of details. If it is windy you need a flat main, if it is light you should have a full main. Sailing around with a full main in big breeze is never the right thing to do. Keep in mind this boat has quite a bit of sail area for size and weight, and unless you reduce sail at the right times, it is PRONE to weather helm-not the opposite. SO, if mast rake is the cause of the problem, you have a severe rake issue (too far forward by a long way). If this is mainly a light air issue I am less concerned, and small things can fix it, but if you see this is over 10 knots of breeze it is something else.
You mentioned loading as a factor - is lee helm typically a a matter of too much weight in the stern or bow? Too much weight aft will cause some lee helm, and too much weight fwd will cause weather helm Thoughts?
If this is really happening in winds over 10 knots or so, and trimming in the mainsail when reaching (but not overtrimming) does not fix it, you need to look underneath the boat.
In general, when sailing close hauled in say 5-10 knots of breeze (with jib cars set correctly, halyards tensioned correctly (for the sake of argument, just enough to remove wrinkles-although there is more to it than this), and the mainsail trimmed in just to the point where it stops luffing (leech telltales flying), you should see the boat very slowly head up into the wind when you let go of the helm, or go dead straight. If it goes straight, trim in a bit more on the mainsheet and the boat should begin to head up into the wind. If you see this situation you are in good shape.. Sailing close-hauled in anything above 10 or 12, the boat should always slowly head up into the wind when the helm is released with sails trimmed optimally for upwind sailing. If it goes straight, do the same thing. At least you are not far off....
When reaching in light air, it should go straight. If there is a SLIGHT tendency to bear away (lee helm), that is not too serious, try sheeting the main a bit tighter.

If it bears away when it is windy (as I understand it), and especially if it does this with just a mainsail up, it is either extreme forward rake or something underwater.

To check rake, attach something heavy (screwdriver or wrench) to the main halyard and ease it down until the tool hits the deck (you need to do this at the dock on a calm day). If the tool lands forward of the mast step (unlikely), then you DO have extreme forward rake, and this could be a big part of the issue. It should land between 1-6" behind the aft side of the mast step.

Why don't we check the amount of rake first and go from there before changing things around?

 

[BDEidson]

Seth - i really appreciate your detailed response and I'll take a look at all of this over the weekend. You seem especially knowledgeable - are you an avid racer or a professionally involved in boating in some way?

Thanks -

Bill