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E27 - Main or Head Sail Driven

G Kiba

Sustaining Member
I've gotten a lot of local advice about sailing and one particular topic is weather a boat is head sail or main sail driven. Factional rig boats are thought to be more main sail driven; while older mast head rigs are head sail driven.

It's been my experience with my E27 that when I reef the main, my upwind performance is significantly diminished. And, there was the time that I was unexpectantly caught in 35+ winds. I was already double reefed and was getting knocked down with every tack. I dropped the main completly, twisted off the head sail (95% cars moved back) and found that I could make very little headway upwind. I ended up dropping the head sail and motoring home. On another occasion, 25+ winds, my passengers were not up to leaning so I sailed on the main alone. This worked well as I saw speeds of 4-5 knots.

So with all boats being different, what have other E27 owners discovered? In a high wind situation, do you sail on the main or the head sail knowing that use of both would be the better (and you have a hank on jib).

Grant Kiba
'73 E27, #406
Antioch, CA
 
Grant,
In high wind situations, I sail with just a working jib. In high wind situations, where the choice is mine, I stay home. Last summer, after weeks of wimpy winds, my buddy and I went out into lower Tampa Bay with squall lines around. We never got around to getting the main up, because we were "into it" rather quickly. On one board, we got the port rail under and were touching on nine knots. Going out in stuff like that is something I would not normally do, but we'd been sailing in 0-3 for weeks and were looking for "action."
I like the way the boat handles with the working jib, both with the main up, with a reefed main and with no main. As a matter of fact, I have grown to like the working jib so much--all sails are hanked on, by the way--that I have taken the 155 tri-radial off the boat and put it in a locker ashore. If I go racing, which I do less and less these days, then I'll put the 155 back on, temporarily.
Morgan Stinemetz
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
"E" vs "J"

I've gotten a lot of local advice about sailing and one particular topic is weather a boat is head sail or main sail driven. Factional rig boats are thought to be more main sail driven; while older mast head rigs are head sail driven.
<snip>

Until an expert like Seth checks in, I would only comment that you first look at the distribution of sail area between the main and the foretriangle.
Note that there is an assumption in the last quoted sentence above that oversimplifies things and may lead to an incorrect conclusion...
While Fractionals do indeed normally have a larger main and can "cat boat" in medium winds and above (I used to do this with me ol' Niagara 26), masthead rigs can vary a lot in this ability...

From the sixties era with the last of the CCA influence and their large mains with long booms, to the 70's and the IOR influence with small tall mains (like you seem to be alluding to), to the late 80's to the present with balanced rigs and now bigger mains and narrow and tall masthead headsails (MORC influence).
:nerd:
One thing we were determined to avoid in shopping for our current boat was an all-out IOR masthead rig with its huge fortriangle. :mad:

The BK-designed Ericsons were high on our list, as were the better MORC-derived rig designs like most of the Schumacher boats. The later was the design-inspiration for the Olson 34, and it does have a close-to-even area of main vs. headsail.

Your E-27 is, IMHO, a nice update of the older, more wholesome CCA ballanced rig. Depending on wind and angle of course thereunto, like Morgan you can pick and choose your sail wardrobe.

Be glad you do not have an IOR rig like some non-Ericsons we could name, where the jibs are really huge and the main is just there to direct leftover air moleclues... In retirement those designs are taxing to cruise even with quality roller furlers.

That's my .02 worth.
YMMV.
:rolleyes:

LB
 

obiwanrazzy

Member II
I would hazzard another (in my case not so informed) opinion. I think the condition and set of the sails would have more influence on our E27 than anything. If you've an old blown out main, and a not so bad jib then you're main will seem to be wanting reletively speaking... and vice versa.

My personal experience leads me to conclude that the main generally doesn't quite do it's fair share of pushing (or is it pulling). Mileage may vary depending on wind speed, angle, proper luff tensioning and oh so many other minute details.
 

Emerald

Moderator
If you've an old blown out main, and a not so bad jib then you're main will seem to be wanting reletively speaking... and vice versa.

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I will give you a big yes to your observation about sail condition having a huge impact based on my own hands-on. I picked up a "new" main last fall - it was actually a used sail in outstanding condition. I have a different boat now. The pointing improved considerably, as did overall feel and performance. It would be interesting to repeat a sail I had just before I got the new sail. It was blowing low 20's gusting up a bit, first put up the main with one reef, sailed a few minutes to see how it felt, pointing sucked and balance was wrong, raised the staysail, and everything got much better. Need to go play with the new main only and add the staysail to see how it works now. Do note that Emerald is a cutter rig, so my fore-triangle is bigger than my main, and the mast is in a different spot in the overall geometry from a sloop. For those not familiar with the sail plan:
 

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G Kiba

Sustaining Member
More details

Both main and head sail are in their second season of use. They are Quantum's dacron performance cursing series. The Quantum sales rep. came out and made all the measurement for a proper fit. He had me add an inside track for the proper sheeting angles and recommended the size (95%) and cloth for my sailing conditions. I know I'm starting to sound like a commercial but the service and results were teriffic.

I've ordered a laminate 80% this week and it was as easy as a phone call and credit card number. He has all my dimenions in his computer so only the price hurts.

Anyways, my current sail ratio leans toward the head sail (visually). The head sail is a deck sweeper with the foot parallel to the deck all the way to the clew.

The boat sails well in 10-18 knot winds and is often "in the groove" enough so that I can take a walk to bow pulpit. Absolutely love this boat!
 
Hi,
I had never ^&**%$ heard for Quantum's *&*^#@! cursing series until this *&#$$@* moment. Shows you that I have not had my *$#@ together. I know better now.
Morgan Stinemetz
 

e38 owner

Member III
maiin vs head sail

It is my understanding that at least with my current 38 and our older 32 that in high winds it is more the angle that you want to go that determines a reasonable sail combination.

On our 38 if I don't need to point high then a headsail only works well.
if you need to point you need more of a balanced combination. A headsail to get the boat through the waves and a main to keep the bow up. with no main and no weather helm it is very hard to poin
 

CaptDan

Member III
I was already double reefed and was getting knocked down with every tack.

Seeing where you hail from prompts me to ask: 'were you sailing in SF's Central Bay - or past the Carquinez Straits when this occured?'

If the answer is 'yes,' my next question is: 'what were the currents doing?'

Sailing into a heavy headwind with a strong flood or eddy is a recipe for 'go-nowhere-while-laying-sideways-sailing.;) Been there, done that - many times, on several boats in my years of sailing there. Despite a few relatively ineffective machinations with vang/traveler/sheets - the only real options were - change course, or motor/sail/drop/jib.

That said, the cut of your jib, the trim of your main, and the lift (or lack thereof) created by both, contribute more to how well your boat balances in various conditions than the inherent design of the rig. IMO.

From what I've experienced and observed, the masthead E-Boats tend to be more jib driven, but the contribution and cut of the mains'l can't be overlooked either. If the jib is overtrimmed, and the main gets backwinded, aerodynamic lift decreases exponentially. Conversely, if the main is blown out, or features a fuller cut, weather helm increases proportionately in heavy air.

In a perfect world, you fly the right cut and weight of canvas for the prevailing conditions. But nothing remains 'perfect' in SF Bay for long. (Unless it's mid-winter, no wind, and you're motoring anyway.;)) So you go with the best compromise and use your 'gearshifts' - the vang/traveler/outhaul - when flying both sails.

And if a flood current is pounding your bow, crack off, or power up.

My 2 cents.:egrin:

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
 
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G Kiba

Sustaining Member
Captin Dan,

I agree with what you are saying about flood and ebb and about the cut of the main sail. All good points.

I'm actually about 15 miles east of the Carquinez Straits. On the San Juaquin River. On that particular day, flying jib only, I was fighting against a flood tide to get home. With wind and tide against me, I ended up motoring. Even while motoring the wind would round the boat up if the bow was not directly into it. I got home by staying in the lee of the leeve.

Sounds like you're familiar with the bay area.

Grant Kiba
'73 E27, #406
Antioch, CA
 
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CaptDan

Member III
Sounds like your familiar with the bay area.

Yup. It's really where I learned to sail - many happy, thrilling, and sometimes - scary - days during those 15 years. Wouldn't trade it for anything.:egrin:

Capt Dan G>E35II "Kunu"
 

Nigel Barron

Notorious Iconoclast
When I raced my E27, I opted for an oversize main and non-overlapping headsails. During a couple of Switftsures we saw some pretty good breeze. I have NEVER reefed. I got the flattest main I could get, and twist off or flog as appropriate and go with a smaller headsail. Only once did we have just the #4 without any main. We found that a full main and the #4 were an awesome combination giving great point and good speed.
 

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G Kiba

Sustaining Member
Thanks Nigel

That's just what I wanted to hear. I'm going to try and carry a full main with the new 80% head sail.

It's been a while since your last post Nigel. Welcome back. Can you give me any details on how you rigged your asymmertic spinnaker?
 

Nigel Barron

Notorious Iconoclast
That's just what I wanted to hear. I'm going to try and carry a full main with the new 80% head sail.

It's been a while since your last post Nigel. Welcome back. Can you give me any details on how you rigged your asymmertic spinnaker?

It has been a while since I poked around here. I think in part because of being in the middle of a ton of stuff going on at work with the 53' race boat I skipper. We were doing the annual Hawaii prep, but the owner's wife is due in July so ended the Hawaii plans for the summer. Instead I hauled the boat for a refit. It will be pimped for the next summer's TransPac.

For the A-sail, we actually created a little prod on the front of the boat so we could float a block for the tack line. It was the only way we could really get anything forward of the forestay so we could gybe the A-Sails. After that, a couple of fairleads got it down the cabin top to a clutch.
 
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