E27 Veers to port underway

[Drew63]

Hi all--I've been learning on the forum for a month or so now and will start by saying thank you to all who post responses and share their experience and wisdom. It's been a great resource for a relative beginner--been around boats for most of my life, but first time I've owned a sailboat. For context, the boat in question is a 74 E27 with the original Atomic 4 which is running fairly well.

I have a lot of work ahead, but one very pressing issue is that when motoring the boat wants to go to port with determination. You can feel the tension in the tiller and if you fail to correct for it, the bow will begin to swing immediately. I can't compare this with performance under sail, as I just bought the boat and only sailed briefly before purchasing. Today it resulted in a splintered tiller--likely the wood was compromised, but I think with all the pressure it was likely to give way at some point.

I'm guessing the cause may be in a bent rudder or rudder shaft, if such a thing exists. I don't think it could be prop wash, as it feels far too forceful.

So, while I look for a replacement tiller, I thought I'd ask the forum for any ideas about this issue. Thanks, Drew.

 

[Loren Beach]

Just for starters.... under sail does the tiller line up straight with your course? When not under way, does the tiller move freely from side to side or is there some resistance to turning it?

 

[Mark David]

My 32-2 has always pulled to port, both with a fixed prop and feathering prop...not enough to break anything, but it gets your attention if you let go of the wheel.

In fact, emergency 'about faces' under power are always to port. Wheel over, blip the throttle forward a couple of times and she 'pivots on the keel'

Doesn't fix your issue, but perhaps offers some perspective....

 

[HerbertFriedman]

My E34 a;so veers to port when motoring forward, so much so that under cruising throttle (~2200rpm), the auto pilot cannot correct. Strangely enough, I notice no backing to port in reverse.

 

[Gary Holford]

Welcome Drew. My boat also pulls to port when under motor. I never understood why but I just learned to live with it and been doing it for 14 seasons. Crazy but she's my first love and I just chalk it up to her personality. Anyhoo my A4 has a 3 bladed Indigo prop and I've always wondered if that was a factor. Sometimes while steering on the starboard side (my preferred) I'll push outward on the tiller with my feet and recline. Turning off the engine removes that force and the sails take over and happy time begins.
I doubt your rudder or shaft are bent. I suppose you could dive down and have a look. As far as the tiller goes it is basically a large lever subject to high mechanical stress. That's the reason they are laminated and not made from one single bolt of wood. You should be able to find a used tiller at one of the used chandleries, Minney's, etc. Don't let this slow you down. We all have these hiccups and you've got a big curve ahead of you.

 

[Kevin A Wright]

Hey Drew,
I had a '77 E27 for about 25 years. Had wheel steering instead of the tiller, but same issue. It's probably just normal prop precession. You have a right handed prop on there so under power it will pull to port. This is exacerbated by the fact that an E27 has a balanced rudder ( the pivot point of the rudder runs down the middle, not like a rudder hung on pintles from the stern). You shouldn't notice this under sail if your sail plan is balanced. (If you like to sail just under a big Genoa Iike I used to, it will again have some noticeable weather helm but to which side depends on which tack you are on.)

But under power it can be a bit startling. There is usually a little pull when you have the rudder centered (or slightly to stbd to compensate) from the prop precession. But once the rudder turns slightly another issue comes into play, the prop wash hits the forward edge of the rudder and starts pushing it over and gets harder and harder to correct back. Was never a big issue with the mechanical advantage of a wheel (unless you made the mistake of letting go), but I imagine it could be quite noticeable with a tiller. Under sail this force is balanced by the same pressure of water on the opposite side of the balance point so really goes away.

Anyway, you've got a fine boat in an E27. Wish you many years of great sailing in her.

Kevin Wright
E35 Hydro Therapy

 

[Teranodon]

My E34 pulls to port under power. I have studied and fretted about it on each haulout, as did the previous owner. None of the obvious causes/solutions work. I simply assume that the prop shaft is slightly misaligned, and I have learned to live with it. It was one reason why I installed an autopilot. Nothing to be done. One of life's merry pranks.

Needless to say, I wouldn't even think about buying a boat that pulled under sail.

 

[tpcorrigan]

Hey Drew, Welcome. We have a 76 E27 and it pulls slightly to port and if you let go of the wheel (we have one) the boat will do a nice 360. this is somewhat common on some spade type rudder boats, especially if your shaft/prop is slightly off center. we were lucky, ours is only about 3/4 of an inch off center but enough to cause high pressure/low pressure action on the rudder in conjunction to the precession stated by Keven above. you just get used to the feel and, heck, we love our boat. Its like part of our family. We also have the 3 bladed Indigo prop as Gary above and that was a game changer when slowing down or heading into a large sea. Take care and enjoy the boat _/)

 

[Drew63]

Thanks to all of you for offering up your experience and wisdom and, ultimately, the very reasonable collective point of view that this is not really a problem but a fairly common, manageable condition on boats of this kind. So helpful to gain this perspective!

I kept looking at other craft plying their ways in or out of the harbor and noticing solo sailors walking away from the wheel so as to coil a line or cover a sail, all the while their boat never straying from a straight path. Or others who seemed to steer casually with one foot, or with a wrist laid atop a wheel while checking their phone. Keeping straight on the E27 is a bit of a workout. I guess those boats either had very different physics going on below the waterline or maybe had a transom mounted rudder that isn't prey to this issue.

I'm scheduled to have the bottom painted within the month, so that will at least be an opportunity to confirm there's no structural misalignment with the rudder or shaft or anything. Then I'll just let go of the nuisance but never of the tiller--while motoring.

That and a new, strong tiller should do the trick by the look of things. And, again, thanks to all of you for weighing in here. I'm somewhat embarrassed though--as a friend of mine found existing conversations on this forum that dealt with this issue. So apologies for that.

Best, Drew

 

[Drew63]

Hey Drew,
I had a '77 E27 for about 25 years. Had wheel steering instead of the tiller, but same issue. It's probably just normal prop precession. You have a right handed prop on there so under power it will pull to port. This is exacerbated by the fact that an E27 has a balanced rudder ( the pivot point of the rudder runs down the middle, not like a rudder hung on pintles from the stern). You shouldn't notice this under sail if your sail plan is balanced. (If you like to sail just under a big Genoa Iike I used to, it will again have some noticeable weather helm but to which side depends on which tack you are on.)

But under power it can be a bit startling. There is usually a little pull when you have the rudder centered (or slightly to stbd to compensate) from the prop precession. But once the rudder turns slightly another issue comes into play, the prop wash hits the forward edge of the rudder and starts pushing it over and gets harder and harder to correct back. Was never a big issue with the mechanical advantage of a wheel (unless you made the mistake of letting go), but I imagine it could be quite noticeable with a tiller. Under sail this force is balanced by the same pressure of water on the opposite side of the balance point so really goes away.

Anyway, you've got a fine boat in an E27. Wish you many years of great sailing in her.

Kevin Wright
E35 Hydro Therapy

Thanks Kevin--great explanation of the forces at play. I guess I went directly to the assumption that something was bent or incorrectly mounted because I wouldn't have imagined that a quirk like this was something so commonly found in such a popular model/set up. But it seems as though it was a difficult effect to neutralize through the design of these inboards, or so I'm coming to understand. Again, I'm very appreciative of the time you and the others have taken to lay out the issue and walk me back from the fear that something was seriously wrong. I will let that go and certainly expect years of enjoyment with the Ericson.

 

[Gary Holford]

This past summer we had a long run motor sailing in big following seas that overwhelmed the auto tiller. I hand steered for 9 hours which can get a little physical. A bungee connected to the tiller and the port side made the job a lot easier. You learn these little tricks as you go.

 

[TerryK]

With the tiller amidships my E27 will simply motor in circles to port. Autohelm ( raymarine st2000) will hold the tiller slightly to starboard and motor quite straight. At slow speeds, going forward, the problem is nonexistent and the boat responds very well to port or starboard. My son, who is 6 years old is almost completely unable to fight off the boat’s tendencies to steer to port, In fact it is exhausting for me too, in areas crowded with boats. Constantly fighting the tiller to steer around traffic is not enjoyable. FWIW folding martec prop.
Terry
1974 E27

 

[JSM]

My last boat was a tiller steered C&C 30 and would also pull to port under power. My E34 also does the same. I always assumed that it is caused by the relationship of the position of the prop to the rudder.

 

[HerbertFriedman]

I understand that most boats with a right handed prop will veer to port in forward gear, my E34 certainly does that. But what I dont understand why the stern of the boat does not pull to port in reverse. Any ideas out there?

 

[Loren Beach]

I understand that most boats with a right handed prop will veer to port in forward gear, my E34 certainly does that. But what I dont understand why the stern of the boat does not pull to port in reverse. Any ideas out there?

Our boat backs to port, and most others with same prop rotation do this. It's noticeable until we get a little bit of speed and momentum up in reverse.

 

[Teranodon]

I understand that most boats with a right handed prop will veer to port in forward gear, my E34 certainly does that. But what I dont understand why the stern of the boat does not pull to port in reverse. Any ideas out there?

There are at least a dozen explanations of "prop walk" out there, none of which sound very convincing to me. Please keep in mind that, as it turns, the propeller throws water in both directions, which invalidates a bunch of the theories. True, water is a little deeper, hence denser, on the lower part of the propeller, but the stuff is so incompressible that plugging in numbers gives you no effect. Try throwing a Mars bar to starboard once a minute and see if that turns your boat to port...

More promising are theories about how the water vortex interacts with the hull. Alas, that vortex moves away from the boat when you are going forward. I suspect that the true explanation requires sophisticated physics that is beyond most of us. Sort of like trying to explain why there are two high tides every day in most places, not one. The simple explanation (Moon attracts water) is just obviously wrong.

 

[Christian Williams]

My boat doesn't veer in forward gear. In reverse it veers strongly to port until one knot of boat speed is attained and the rudder begins to work.

Since it takes at least a boat length to achieve boat speed in reverse, and probably more, there is ample opportunity to "over turn" in tight quarters. Such a prop-walk "over turn" puts the boat into a helpless position. The only solution is to apply a (small, artful) burst of forward gear. This often propels the boat perpendicular to the fairway. Now a series of K-turns is necessary just to get back into position to try again.

Two of my slip mates in recent years have hired captains to show them how to back out of our tight slips. I don't think it helped. What works is to practice--this is familiarity, not a memorized procedure. And to practice with a crew ready to fend off with boathooks, and to personally discover what can go wrong, and to learn to recognize and avoid the helpless position--and the patience required to get out of it if it happens.

The problem is the delayed response in slow-speed K-turn maneuvers. The coordination of throttle and shift lever requires familiarity and a gentle touch, not likely for the inexperienced under stress. You have to intentionally put yourself in the helpless position to "get it," and to be confident of how to extract yourself from it (K-turns, subtle throttle, patience).

OK, this is a lament not really on the topic of boats that veer in forward gear under power (my suggestion: a Tillermaster). The lament is that the skippers around me never seem to practice anything ("we're not racing"). They think they were born with the ability to parallel park their Suburban, and have forgotten they had to practice to learn how.

Then they back into my boat.

 

[Teranodon]

It is my impression that the mythology of spinning the boat around in very tight quarters has little to do with prop walk. It's about applying a short burst of power (forward or reverse) with the helm hard over in the appropriate direction. Throwing water at the rudder will always produce torque without the need to invoke mystical phenomena. That said, I've only had modest success doing this. Maybe I'll practice more next season....

 

[Christian Williams]

From a dead stop, rudder position makes a difference in forward gear. But not in reverse. In reverse, without steerageway, the immediate effect is prop walk. Prop walk is about all the maneuvering power we have in reverse, from a dead stop.

 

[frick]

I tend to pull my e 29 out of the slip and give the bow a push to line up the boat with the channel. With Practice my prop walk will keep me away from the the 50 foot Hunter I have to pass in reverse.