E30+ Bilge Access

[Loren Beach]

You are on track, and getting excellent advice. I would reinforce the idea of a separate engine survey, even tho it might have to wait until the boat is launched. Unless you have prior experience with inboard engines and their maintenance, you will find that the cost of the survey is worth every nickel. Listen and take notes, and photos. If you can develop reppore with a mechanic this will benefit you a lot.
Our engine survey was done a long ways from home (boat was in Alameda and 'home' is PDX) but that guy gave me good pointers about diesel maintenance. He did a compression test and ran it under load. He found a rusted-out exhaust elbow under the shiny paint. The seller paid to replace that elbow, which more than saved me the cost of the survey.
BTW, many/most surveyors will report on the the condition of the rigging, up to "height of eye". Just figure that you will be replacing the standing rig on any boat you buy, unless the rig 1) passes a thorough inspection, AND 2) you receive a credible receipt showing that it was all replaced within the last ten years.
Engines, OTOH, can outlive you, only limited by eventual scarcity of parts as the decades roll by.

 

[bigd14]

It is "relatively" easy to run an engine on the hard, of course you would want to have the owners permission first because it involves removing hoses. Here are the steps I used to do that. Incidentally this is basically the same method I use to winterize the engine, minus the garden hose

Materials Needed
A length of clear hose that matches the intake hose size and reaches from the water pump on the engine into the cockpit.
A weight to keep clear hose submerged (I zip tie a crescent wrench to the end of the hose)
A 5 gallon bucket
Spring clamps or other method to keep intake hose and garden hose positioned in bucket
A garden hose with shutoff valve on the end

Procedure
Remove intake hose from engine raw water pump
Install clear hose from cockpit to water pump
Fill bucket with water from garden hose
Fill intake hose with water to prevent airlock, then secure the end deep in the bucket
Turn on garden hose to keep bucket full (don't worry about overflow it just runs out the cockpit drains)
Start engine. If it doesn't start in the first 2-4 efforts make sure you don't get too much water in the lift muffler (you may have to drain it periodically).
Check the clear hose and exhaust to make sure water is being drawn into engine from bucket. You may have to shut engine off and work it a couple times to get it to prime

The amount of water pumping out the back wasn't enough to cause flooding issues when I have done this. I have run it for an hour this way.

And yes, get an engine survey!

Good luck!

 

[L-G Harvey]

Weird as they are both 84 models built weeks maybe days apart...looking closer i think there are what appears to be screws in the corners of that board.

My 1984 30+ (Hull 614) had screws in this panel too. I have removed them so I can check the bilge by simply lifintg the board. This will give you the best view. By the way the cabin sole looks great.

 

[Dave G.]

Thanks all for the great help with my seemingly endless questions. So just got back from the survey and things went pretty well on the whole. The hull and deck are solid. there are some leaky windows/hatches, need to replace halyards/sheets, some burnt out bulbs...I do have some more questions though. The first is concerning the rudder, when the rudder is at dead ahead position you can lift the entire rudder and shaft about 1/2" or so. When the rudder is hard to starboard or port it is tight and you cannot lift it at all. The other question involves the propeller shaft which has about 1/4" of in out play. It has a dripless coupling and the shaft seems to have that movement on the propeller side of the coupling. Hope that makes sense, any insight would be appreciated. Also does anyone have a picture of their steering from above through the aft cockpit locker ?

 

[Frank Langer]

Hi Dave,

Nice that your survey generally went well. Window leaks, halyards & sheets and burnt out bulbs don't sound too serious and can be remedied.

Regarding the rudder, mine does not have the up/down movement you mention. Would it be possible to have someone lift it while you watch for movement inside the cockpit locker (I know it's tight in there, but one can get right back into the rudder area in the cockpit locker). It seems to me that I would not want movement in the rudder, especially in waves, which might raise/lower the rudder causing wear on something. Perhaps it's only an adjustment.

The prop shaft is also puzzling, as in my opinion it should be firm, and should not move forward/backward. The shaft is held onto the transmission coupler with two set screws. If they are not tight, the prop could theoretically move inside the transmission coupler, though I've never seen that. I would start by ensuring those are tight. I'm assuming the four bolts holding the transmission coupler to the transmission flange are tight. Tightening them would be an easy fix, but I can't imagine that the surveyor would not have seen them being loose, or that the boat would have been operable with them loose, but who knows. If those are all tight, ensure the propeller itself is tight on the shaft. I don't think the dripless shaft is a factor here, as the various components slide onto the shaft. The carbon piece can be moved back from the stainless rotor to allow lubricating water in momentarily after launching, but it should spring back to seal the carbon and rotor. Either way, it slides on the prop shaft, but does not move the shaft itself. If you are not familiar with dripless shafts, you can search the internet for PSS Dripless Seal, and get good visual guidance.

I don't have any pics of the steering quadrant/rudder tube area, and am not currently on the boat.

Dave, I'm not a mechanic, so I'm just providing my opinion based on owning sailboats for many years and doing most of my own work on them. Let's see what others think about your questions.

Frank

 

[Dave G.]

Hi Dave,

Nice that your survey generally went well. Window leaks, halyards & sheets and burnt out bulbs don't sound too serious and can be remedied.

Regarding the rudder, mine does not have the up/down movement you mention. Would it be possible to have someone lift it while you watch for movement inside the cockpit locker (I know it's tight in there, but one can get right back into the rudder area in the cockpit locker). It seems to me that I would not want movement in the rudder, especially in waves, which might raise/lower the rudder causing wear on something. Perhaps it's only an adjustment.

The prop shaft is also puzzling, as in my opinion it should be firm, and should not move forward/backward. The shaft is held onto the transmission coupler with two set screws. If they are not tight, the prop could theoretically move inside the transmission coupler, though I've never seen that. I would start by ensuring those are tight. I'm assuming the four bolts holding the transmission coupler to the transmission flange are tight. Tightening them would be an easy fix, but I can't imagine that the surveyor would not have seen them being loose, or that the boat would have been operable with them loose, but who knows. If those are all tight, ensure the propeller itself is tight on the shaft. I don't think the dripless shaft is a factor here, as the various components slide onto the shaft. The carbon piece can be moved back from the stainless rotor to allow lubricating water in momentarily after launching, but it should spring back to seal the carbon and rotor. Either way, it slides on the prop shaft, but does not move the shaft itself. If you are not familiar with dripless shafts, you can search the internet for PSS Dripless Seal, and get good visual guidance.

I don't have any pics of the steering quadrant/rudder tube area, and am not currently on the boat.

Dave, I'm not a mechanic, so I'm just providing my opinion based on owning sailboats for many years and doing most of my own work on them. Let's see what others think about your questions.

Frank

Frank, the rudder is a puzzle to me. The main reason it doesn't make sense is that the movement decreases the farther you move it to port or starboard until there is no movement at full turn in either direction. The movement is in the entire shaft and quadrant as well

 

[Frank Langer]

Frank, the rudder is a puzzle to me. The main reason it doesn't make sense is that the movement decreases the farther you move it to port or starboard until there is no movement at full turn in either direction. The movement is in the entire shaft and quadrant as well

Dave, I think the fact that there is no up/down movement in the rudder when it's turned hard to either side is due to the shape of the rudder and the hull. During a recent haul out, I noticed that the space between the rudder and the hull, which is partially filled by a washer (Delrin material?) is much less when the rudder is turned than when straight. I wonder if that washer between the rudder and the hull on your boat might have been damaged and gone missing, maybe being an explanation for the up/down movement? Just a thought...
Frank

 

[Dave G.]

Dave, I think the fact that there is no up/down movement in the rudder when it's turned hard to either side is due to the shape of the rudder and the hull. During a recent haul out, I noticed that the space between the rudder and the hull, which is partially filled by a washer (Delrin material?) is much less when the rudder is turned than when straight. I wonder if that washer between the rudder and the hull on your boat might have been damaged and gone missing, maybe being an explanation for the up/down movement? Just a thought...
Frank

That's exactly what i noticed and lead me to lift up on the rudder when I saw the space. The spacer was there looked to be about 3/8" thick ?

 

[Frank Langer]

That's exactly what i noticed and lead me to lift up on the rudder when I saw the space. The spacer was there looked to be about 3/8" thick ?

Yeah, that sounds about right for the spacer. On haulout I have always moved the rudder side to side to ensure it was smooth, and tried to twist it (one hand on top, the other on the bottom) to check for looseness, but I can't recall ever trying to lift it. Did your surveyor have any comments or suggestions about it?
I'm still inclined to think it's a good idea to have someone lift it while you observe from inside the locker to see where it moves, how much, and whether it is due to something being loose.
Frank

 

[Dave G.]

Yeah, that sounds about right for the spacer. On haulout I have always moved the rudder side to side to ensure it was smooth, and tried to twist it (one hand on top, the other on the bottom) to check for looseness, but I can't recall ever trying to lift it. Did your surveyor have any comments or suggestions about it?
I'm still inclined to think it's a good idea to have someone lift it while you observe from inside the locker to see where it moves, how much, and whether it is due to something being loose.
Frank

It lifts the whole shaft and quadrant. The surveyor thought it was "unusual". I am going to guess that it has to have the "space" or you would not be able to turn fully without it binding based on what you stated about that gap decreasing when the rudder is fully turned. Which is exactly the same thing that was happening today. There must be specs on the rudder install somewhere maybe ?

 

[Frank Langer]

It lifts the whole shaft and quadrant. The surveyor thought it was "unusual". I am going to guess that it has to have the "space" or you would not be able to turn fully without it binding based on what you stated about that gap decreasing when the rudder is fully turned. Which is exactly the same thing that was happening today. There must be specs on the rudder install somewhere maybe ?

Dave,

I am not aware of specs on the install. The closest I have ever seen was a diagram of the rudder, but nothing on installation that I'm aware of, though others here may have more information on that.

This is a bit of a puzzle, but I'm beginning to think that the space you noticed is, as you suggest, to allow the rudder to turn side to side without hitting the hull when turned fully, and not a problem at all. I would verify that by having someone turn it and lift it while you are observing in the cockpit locker to see if anything looks loose, moves in a sloppy manner or looks otherwise "unusual" to use the surveyor's term. I vaguely recall that there is a bolt that goes horizontally through the rudder post to hold the rudder in place, so I would especially check to see if it looks ok. If it all looks ok in there, my inclination would be to monitor it under sail, especially during the sea trial, and after that if you buy the boat. If a problem emerges, you can deal with it, if no problem, then enjoy the boat!
Frank

 

[Dave G.]

Dave,

I am not aware of specs on the install. The closest I have ever seen was a diagram of the rudder, but nothing on installation that I'm aware of, though others here may have more information on that.

This is a bit of a puzzle, but I'm beginning to think that the space you noticed is, as you suggest, to allow the rudder to turn side to side without hitting the hull when turned fully, and not a problem at all. I would verify that by having someone turn it and lift it while you are observing in the cockpit locker to see if anything looks loose, moves in a sloppy manner or looks otherwise "unusual" to use the surveyor's term. I vaguely recall that there is a bolt that goes horizontally through the rudder post to hold the rudder in place, so I would especially check to see if it looks ok. If it all looks ok in there, my inclination would be to monitor it under sail, especially during the sea trial, and after that if you buy the boat. If a problem emerges, you can deal with it, if no problem, then enjoy the boat!
Frank

 

[Dave G.]

Thanks again, I'll keep looking for more info and continue to monitor it once launched.

 

[L-G Harvey]

Hi Guys. Don't know if this will help but I have a photo of my rudder from a survey last year. There is just enough space for the rudder to turn and in painting it each year I have never seen it lift. The surveyor moved it around quite a bit and I'm sure he would have noticed if it lifted. In any case there is not a lot of clearance between the boat and rudder. I'm tempted to say no more than an inch, but I don't have access to the boat right now to check.
Louis

 

[Dave G.]

Hi Guys. Don't know if this will help but I have a photo of my rudder from a survey last year. There is just enough space for the rudder to turn and in painting it each year I have never seen it lift. The surveyor moved it around quite a bit and I'm sure he would have noticed if it lifted. In any case there is not a lot of clearance between the boat and rudder. I'm tempted to say no more than an inch, but I don't have access to the boat right now to check.
Louis
View attachment 33000

Thanks Louis, Do you know if he physically tried to lift it ?

 

[L-G Harvey]

Thanks Louis, Do you know if he physically tried to lift it ?

I don't know that he did or not. He certainly never mentioned anything about it. Moreover, my boat is on the hard every winter and I usually paint the rudder every second year with anti-fouling, In handling it and turning it I never noticed that it lifted. The surveyor did say the whole assembly seemed in good shape with no play, which has been my observation.

Wish I could check it for you, but I wont be back to the boat until the borders open.

L.

 

[eknebel]

Frank, below is attached pic of salon floor, where are the plates ?

I am a little late for the survey, but here goes,
-My E30+, 1980, hull 509 has the same single lift out panel that Dave G. posted a picture describing. Mine is not screwed down with no tell tale holes remaining in fiberglass liner and gives access to most keel bolts. lift out the two adjacent port settees liners to see the furthest bolts(no hardware to remove).
-My rudder also has the approximately 3/8" spacer between hull and rudder top. When I replaced the rudder a few years ago, and had to trim and glass the aft upper edge of the rudder that would rub the hull if hard over. The rudder was from the original OEM, foss foam in southern California(with shipping about $1800). Foss foam in the Carolinas is not the same place. I think most boats are semi custom when it comes to fitting it all together, certainly always changing. I replaced the rudder because of 20 years at least of water saturation, and would drill a 1/8' drain hole when hauled out over the winter. I could lift it up on the shaft when saturated, and the new one was much lighter. I took the old rudder apart, the foam was saturated, but the S.S plate and rudder tube showed little corrosion. I was chagrined that perhaps it didn't really need replacing since the boat lived its life on the brackish Chesapeake. On the other hand, the seed of thought to replace the rudder came from the Admiral during a long motor on the C&D canal. I casually said I had concerns about the rudder. With gale force winds anticipated after we left the protected water of the canal, perhaps it wasn't the best time to mention future plans. So I moved up rudder replacement on the never done list. She is now confident again in the boat again, which is a very important aspect to the everyone's enjoyment in the boat. A sea going corollary to "Happy wife, happy life". This last is kind of off topic, but a important factor to consider when prioritizing refit tasks. Safety and reliability first always, then in my case, deck leaks. Decades ago in a different boat, the priority of deck leaks was reinforced in no uncertain terms if I wanted her and my children on board. 40 years later, they all take the boat for day sails, and come together go on a cruise at least once a year.. so something worked!
-I have also run engine on stands as bigd14 described, just using my 1 gal rubber bailing/trash bucket which will only last a few minutes, a hose on trickle can extend run times. check with yard if their insurance allows running the engine.
If you do a search on this forum, you should find posts where I wax poetic about the E30+. Hidden problems mirror other boats of the vintage, but without deck rot, as Frank said, you are starting with is a well built, well sailing boat to start with.
-This site is a tremendous resource, with seasoned, experienced moderators, a friendly place to ask for good advice( a shameless plug for all the moderators, and Sean Engle, fearless site administrator!).

 

[eknebel]

I forgot to add that I don t have much forward/aft play at all, and little/none side to side. A on site mechanic can guide you on this one.

 

[Dave G.]

I forgot to add that I don t have much forward/aft play at all, and little/none side to side. A on site mechanic can guide you on this one.

Thanks Ed ! Good stuff, she seems pretty sound with all the usual "deferred maintenance". All the halyards are still at the mast so curious if you or another E30+ sistership has run it all back to the cockpit and if so how did you mount the blocks at the mast base?

 

[Dave G.]

All,
Attached is a pic of the steering fulcrum that my surveyor thought looked incorrect do to the severe bends in the cables. Does this look normal to you guys ?