E30+ mainsheet system upgrade...

[jacksonkev]

Hello All,

I'm thinking about buying a new mainsheet system for my Ericson 30+. The old (possibly original) mainsheet system is an old, pretty beat up Schaefer fiddle block with becket and cam with (2) single blocks on the boom. The (2) bails are about 3'-4' forward of the the end boom. In other words, not over the companionway and not end boom. I think this is the standard setup for this boat (See drawing for visual). The old setup is functional but clunky and the cam cleats are metal, can't adjust the angle and not very user friendly. Anyway, I thought I'd take a look at Harken's website to see if I could find something worth upgrading to. I found a 75 mm Carbo Fiddle Block (also a ratchet version) with Becket and Cam Cleat that gets good reviews for weight, strength, ease of use, etc. but I have 2 questions....

1. Does anyone have sailing experience with the ratchet version? It's only about $50 more all in and sounds kind of cool but with anything that is more complicated (moving parts) am I asking for trouble down the road? Is the upside better than the potential longevity downside? Disclaimer, I don't race (or if I do, it's not very often) but I do find myself adjusting the trim on my main often. Mostly because I sail in the windy, shifty SF bay.

2. More importantly, as I see it, I have 2 options on the boom side of the equation if I bought either of the Harken fiddle blocks. I could simply replace the (2) old single blocks with (2) new single 75mm Carbo blocks or I could streamline the system a bit with (1) new 75mm fiddle block and attach it on the aft bail. I understand that the original setup has (2) bails and it probably makes more conservative sense to use them (as the boom may be vulnerable to bending or breaking with just (1) point of attachment) but is this actually a real concern with the bail being located pretty far back on the boom? I've seen many modern boats with this setup not attached to the end of the boom. Plus, I like the fiddle block setup because it would give a little more room for crew to move around in the already cramped cockpit and I simply like the look (stupid reason, I know ). BUT I wouldn't risk a broken boom if this was possible.

Thoughts?

Thank you!

 

[Frank Langer]

Have you considered talking with Harken to get their advice? I'd be interested in the result and might install on our E30+.
Frank

 

[jacksonkev]

Have you considered talking with Harken to get their advice? I'd be interested in the result and might install on our E30+.
Frank

Yes, I called Harken tech support first and they were helpful when it came to questions about the Harken products but reluctant when making judgement calls about my boom. Which I can totally understand as they have no idea which boom I have. I think a rigger or maybe even the manufacturer of the boom might have a definitive answer. I'd assume it's totally safe to replace our 2 bail system with 1 fiddle block but you know what they say about when you assume...

 

[Ian S]

The Harken travelers and blocks are quite nice with a price tag to match. Lewmar makes a good traveler set up as well for less $$. In re: to ratchet blocks I would never set up a hand hauled mainsheet without one, they are worth every cent! reliability is a non issue. I have a couple of harken ratchets that are easily 20+ years old that I have on a couple of racing skiffs. If I were going harken I would probably stick with the classic blocks which are stronger and can often be found cheap on eBay brand new, I guess they don't look sexy enough for modern sailors so they have fallen out a favor but they are bullet proof. I would retain the two singles on the boom not only for spreading the load which is probably not a major factor that far aft on the boom but many don't realize it eliminates twists in the mainsheet keeping the lower fiddle block oriented correctly. If you need parts call the guys at the rigging loft in Fairhaven Ma. tell em Ian sent you

Good luck! Capt. Ian

 

[jacksonkev]

I would retain the two singles on the boom not only for spreading the load which is probably not a major factor that far aft on the boom but many don't realize it eliminates twists in the mainsheet keeping the lower fiddle block oriented correctly.

Thanks! That's an interesting point.

Potentially stupid question...do you need to buy all ratchet blocks in a ratcheting mainsheet setup or just the lower fiddle block?

 

[Loren Beach]

Thanks! That's an interesting point.

Potentially stupid question...do you need to buy all ratchet blocks in a ratcheting mainsheet setup or just the lower fiddle block?

The ratchet is used only on the final sheave in the block system.

Loren

 

[jacksonkev]

The ratchet is used only on the final sheave in the block system.

Loren

Makes sense to me...thanks!

 

[Guy Stevens]

Go with Garhauer

Better blocks that all of those mentioned, and a lot cheaper.

Guy

 

[markvone]

jacksonkev,

I have almost the same size mainsail on my E36RH as you have on the 30+, and the same traveler location. My boom is a custom Kenyon extrusion built for the E36RH and it's probably lighter than the E30+ boom. My mainsheet attachment is at a single point ~ 1.5 feet short of the end of the boom. I would not be worried about the boom bending with an attachment near the end of the boom. I WOULD be concerned that the single attachment point at the boom is reinforced for the load.

I have the old original Harken classic blocks that still work great. The ratchet block can be turned off in light air but really helps otherwise. I have a pair of triple blocks yielding 7:1 which is enough purchase even when it's windy. I would think that your current 4:1 requires a lot of effort in windy SF. If I were upgrading, I would consider more purchase or a 2 speed setup if needed. I'm considering a 2 speed setup like the J/105 uses when I upgrade my traveler track and car.

Mark

 

[Nick J]

Make it easy, make it fun

I've been contemplating this upgrade as well on my 25+. The original Kenyon traveler is a joke. The thing barely roles when there's no load on it. I'm sure age is the primary factor, but the design isn't great and I'm shocked to see similar designs still sold by Schaefer for more $ than Harken. Making matters even worse, the control lines exit the blocks at the end of the traveler vertically on the cockpit coamings, but I'm never in position to pull vertically. The actual main sheet system isn't much better. 4:1 seems a little under powered when I'm sailing alone and trying to do 6 other things even on my relatively small sail. Lewmar's complete traveler systems are appealing due to the cost and their continual bearing system (similar to Harken's at half the cost). If cost wasn't an issue, I'd probably go with a Harken system with a windward car. For the main sheet, it would be nice to go with a 6:1 with a ratchet block. Garhauer also makes some interesting double ended 3:1 / 6:1 systems, but don't have a ratchet. It's all a little over kill, but who said sailing has to be hard?

 

[Guy Stevens]

Garhauer Double speed system

The garhauer double speed systems work great, we have installed them on a number of boats, and the clients love them. With the added purchase you don't need a ratchet block for the system.

We have put these on a bunch of boats, from 23 footers all the way up to a modified version of this on our E-46.

If you are upgrading the traveler at the same time, I can't recommend Garhauer components enough. The quality far surpasses anything by either Lewmar, Schaefer, or Harken. I sell all 4 and make the most money on Harken stuff. Much better margins for me on Harken than all the rest, but unless we are looking to shave oz and willing to repurchase the gear frequently Garhauer is a much better choice.

Guy

 

[jacksonkev]

I would not be worried about the boom bending with an attachment near the end of the boom. I WOULD be concerned that the single attachment point at the boom is reinforced for the load.

Thanks Mark, all good advice. My 4:1 isn't all that hard to handle under heavy loads. I simpy use the "bow and arrow trimming technique"** where you pull the furthest aft mainsheet line between the aft bail and fiddle block like a bow with your left hand and pull in the working end of the mainsheet with your right hand. Works like a champ unless you have a beer in one hand. Alright, maybe I need greater purchase system...

I'm curious if anyone knows if the stock boom bails are reinforced enough to handle the load of using just one in a mainsheet system?

**I believe that I invented this.

 

[jacksonkev]

I've been contemplating this upgrade as well on my 25+. The original Kenyon traveler is a joke. The thing barely roles when there's no load on it. I'm sure age is the primary factor, but the design isn't great and I'm shocked to see similar designs still sold by Schaefer for more $ than Harken. Making matters even worse, the control lines exit the blocks at the end of the traveler vertically on the cockpit coamings, but I'm never in position to pull vertically. The actual main sheet system isn't much better. 4:1 seems a little under powered when I'm sailing alone and trying to do 6 other things even on my relatively small sail. Lewmar's complete traveler systems are appealing due to the cost and their continual bearing system (similar to Harken's at half the cost). If cost wasn't an issue, I'd probably go with a Harken system with a windward car. For the main sheet, it would be nice to go with a 6:1 with a ratchet block. Garhauer also makes some interesting double ended 3:1 / 6:1 systems, but don't have a ratchet. It's all a little over kill, but who said sailing has to be hard?

Agreed! Let's all band together and brainstorm on an EASY system to upgrade to from our antiquated Schaefer/Kenyon mainsheet/traveler systems. The E30+ design offers a fairly unique and annoying problem when choosing...

1. The mainsail is oversized for this boat and working loads are a bit high.

2. The mainsheet is not really mid boom nor end boom where a typical 4:1 purchase would be fine. But where it's located 3/4 boom, the mainsheet is a little underpowered. I think a ratchet style 4:1 might be enough help but not 100% confident. And those modern triple block 6:1 (and certainly 8:1) mainsheet systems look like catamaran setups to me (sorry if anyone here has one).

3. The track is not flush mounted in the cockpit. Instead there's a "trough" bench high in the cockpit where the track is mounted and poor bolt access underneath in the lazarette and the fixed (narrow) dimensions of said "trough" limit traveler upgrade options.

I'm thinking about keeping my original 3/4" I-beam traveler track and finding the best car available and buying a new Harken ratcheting 75mm carbo fiddle block with becket/cam and (2) single carbo blocks (utilizing both original bails on the boom). Meh...I dunno.

 

[Glyn Judson]

You are correct about the deep trough that a traveler track and car must fit into. A common fix is to add a length of teak batten material to the installation. The teak will act as a riser to elevate the track, etc. We have a Harken Windward Sheeting system car that clears the surrounding area perfectly, photo attached. Look carefully and you'll see that batten beneath the track. Ours too was somewhat difficult to access the nuts and washers from below, but doable. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

 

[Loren Beach]

FWIW, the Harken 6 to 1 set of triple blocks is stock on the Olson 34. Works very well.

Loren

 

[jacksonkev]

You are correct about the deep trough that a traveler track and car must fit into. A common fix is to add a length of teak batten material to the installation. The teak will act as a riser to elevate the track, etc. We have a Harken Windward Sheeting system car that clears the surrounding area perfectly, photo attached. Look carefully and you'll see that batten beneath the track. Ours too was somewhat difficult to access the nuts and washers from below, but doable. Glyn Judson, E31 hull #55, Marina del Rey CA

Thanks for the great advice. That would open up a lot of options.

 

[jacksonkev]

FWIW, the Harken 6 to 1 set of triple blocks is stock on the Olson 34. Works very well.

Loren

That's good to know...I think it's just a vision I have in my head that they are made for cats. I appreciate the tip.

 

[Rocinante33]

I upgraded my mainsheet & traveler as follows;

Mainsheet was a 4:1 fiddle block with a becket and a cam cleat in conjunction with two single blocks (separated) on the boom. way too weak! So I modified it to be a 6:1, much as Loren described.
1. I got a triple block with a becket & cam for the mainsheet control.
2. I got a double block of the boom to replace one of the single blocks on the boom.
3. Lines were threaded as described on the Harken web site for a 6:1 system except on the boom I have separate blocks, a single and a double, so I routed the lines accordingly.
4. Don't forget that if you increase your purchase by 50%, you must also increase the length of your sheet by about 50%!
I used Lewmar blocks but your brand is based on your preference, of course.

Traveler was either a 3:1 or a 4:1. I'm not sure which. It had a single block with a becket and a double block on each end of the traveler. I replaced the single with a double with becket and swapped the original double to the outboard end.
Again, the line must be lengthened.
This is a much improved system.

Making these upgrades proved to be the most cost effective way for me to do it.

 

[jacksonkev]

I upgraded my mainsheet & traveler as follows;

Mainsheet was a 4:1 fiddle block with a becket and a cam cleat in conjunction with two single blocks (separated) on the boom. way too weak! So I modified it to be a 6:1, much as Loren described.
1. I got a triple block with a becket & cam for the mainsheet control.
2. I got a double block of the boom to replace one of the single blocks on the boom.
3. Lines were threaded as described on the Harken web site for a 6:1 system except on the boom I have separate blocks, a single and a double, so I routed the lines accordingly.
4. Don't forget that if you increase your purchase by 50%, you must also increase the length of your sheet by about 50%!
I used Lewmar blocks but your brand is based on your preference, of course.

Traveler was either a 3:1 or a 4:1. I'm not sure which. It had a single block with a becket and a double block on each end of the traveler. I replaced the single with a double with becket and swapped the original double to the outboard end.
Again, the line must be lengthened.
This is a much improved system.

Making these upgrades proved to be the most cost effective way for me to do it.

Thanks Keith, that's a solid idea for an upgrade. Your mainsheet is mid boom, correct? On the E33 (with huge mainsail), I bet a 4:1 was a workout sheeting in to wind!

 

[Rocinante33]

Thanks Keith, that's a solid idea for an upgrade. Your mainsheet is mid boom, correct? On the E33 (with huge mainsail), I bet a 4:1 was a workout sheeting in to wind!

My mainsheet is a bit more than mid boom, but closer to that than to end sheeted. I would say it is about 2/3.

Yes it was a large workout to either sheet or to bring the traveler up when going to windward, if I could do them at all. Both are better now with these improvements.