E35-3 mainsail reef depth

[N.A.]

I am in the process of speccing a new mainsail for an E35-3... which is definitely a learning experience (this will be my first purchased sail).

For those of you that have 3 reefs (or 2 with one very deep), where did you specify them? I am told by a sailmakers that normal is 12/24/36% (up luff from tack), but these do not seem nearly deep enough to me. Typical winds in my world are 25-30 all summer; would like to feel that I had more room to depower if offshore and it decided to run higher (as it apprently often does).

--> I am curious what people have chosen for the Ericsons (ideally the 35, but any of the 32/35/38 would be helpful). Many thanks for any suggestions.

* PS: I posted a more detailed question about this (with calculated numbers and other discussion) on sailnet; not trying to double-post here, but rather to get Ericson-specific feedback.

 

[Christian Williams]

I discussed this with UK Sails and went with their (standard) recommendation for Reefs 1 and 2.

I wanted reef #3 to be the equivalent of a storm trysail, since I don't have or want a storm trysail.

I find the first reef very useful above 15 knots or so, if there is a lively sea. It spills less champagne in the cockpit. I use reef #2 for adventurous guests who arrive on a blustery day when sailing is, uh, elective (and might scare the pants off unfamiliar companions). On the 381 two reefs makes a very tractable vessel, and on the 35 too, I'm sure. With half a genoa you're comfortable in 25 gusting higher. Sea state at that point is what makes otherwise willing people seasick.

A third reef on our boats is probably not necessary for most folks because we sail so well under jib alone. But I use the third reef a lot at sea, it just reduces the drama and makes for good balance for self-steering. Since we only have two reef lines, to rig for the third reef means giving up the first reef, with attendant reconfiguring of the reef lines.

Most of us ought to be fine with two reefs. But for San Francisco Bay, or Buzzard's Bay, or anyplace it frequently blows, it's nice to have the option.

.........
First, second, third reefs. Third reef offshore.

 

[Sailingfun]

I have a rule... if I need to run a 3 reef... better stay at home... the bay could be wild sometimes...

 

[N.A.]

Hello Christian - many thanks! I extracted from your images the rough specs; below in case anyone else wants them.

Two follow-ups:
- Did you ever wish your 3rd reef was any deeper, or were you happy with this (and, for calibration of sail area, in what max windspeed up or downwind)?
- Out of curiosity, why did you choose UK Sails?

Specs (extracted from Christian's images):

	remaining luff​	up from tack​	sail area left​
Full main​	100%​	0%​	100%​
1st reef​	90%​	10%​	80%​
2nd reef​	75%​	25%​	56%​
3rd reef​	57%​	43%​	32%​

The first two reefs seem fairly "typical", matching the 12%/per reef sailmakers have mentioned to me. The 3rd is a good bit deeper (the moreso because sail area goes like the square of the luff length for a triangular sail).

Separately: @Sailingfun : yes, I generally agree (been sailing on the bay for 20 years). My interest int he 3rd reef is 1) further depowering (thus a more pleasant sail) for short/singlehanding in what would normally be 2-reef conditions with a crew, and 2) for offshore work, when I may have less opportunity to choose my weather.

Thanks to both of you.

 

[Christian Williams]

The third reef is plenty small. Next step, just lower mainsail. Regarding wind, on the 32-3 I had three days of 25-30, beam reach with big seas, and did fine with a scrap of jib alone. The 381, being heavier, can carry the 3rd reef in any sailable conditions.

UK Sails in Marina del Rey has a rep who's likeable, knowledgeable and responsive. To me all the big lofts are good, it's the local operation that counts. Also, racing needs are different and if I were campaigning a Farr 40 I'd find a more bloodthirsty sailmaker.

 

[Christian Williams]

The E32-3 gets tossed around a bit in heavy conditions, and spoke to me about a third reef. But there are no sailmakers on Kauai. I found a guy with a sewing machine, cut some straps, borrowed two stainless rings, and made this temporary rig. It was a big improvement for the windward work on the way home.

However, a small jib alone worked very well to slow us down, stop the acrobatics, and make sleep possible. The E38 is more stable.

...

 

[Rocinante33]

Local sailmaker experience there in the Bay would be your best source of information, methinks.

 

[N.A.]

@Keith Parcells -- Yes, I'd think so too... but when I talk with folks, I keep getting people telling me not to get a 3rd reef, and to motor up the coast, or not to go out when it's too windy, and a variety of things different from specific information on reef depth. My experience is that boat-supply/maintenance here seems very focused on bay day-sailing, and information about what to do / how to set up for offshore / when I can't "just don't go out" is not as easy to obtain from the pros as I would have thought, though it may well be I have yet to find the right folks to ask. Regardless, I like to understand things and want to understand this.

@Christian Williams -- Thanks yet again. Follow-up question: what have you found the "design speed" for the Ericson's to be, i.e. the windspeed that gives you optimal, non-overpowered heel angle/sailing? I can imagine it depends on point of sail (should, anyway), but any information you have off the top of your head would be of interest.

PS: I ask because a nice person at SailNet pointed out I was optimizing incorrectly, and should be looking at torque (to get optimal heel), not total sail power... which brings in another (moment arm) term related to the luff height. Correcting my equations not surprisingly gives me numbers that match better what you and others have suggested for your reef depths, so to some extent my original question is now answered. However, running my own numbers does depend on what the design windspeed is for the full main; I guessed 15 kts... curious what you have found.

 

[debonAir]

I've found my boat sails so well with genoa alone that at this point I don't even raise the main at all unless it is very apparent the wind will be enough-to-not-motor but not-likely-to-need-reefing and I'll be out for a while. After the first reef, anything stronger I'll drop the main and sail better for it.

I suppose for super-heavy offshore work a really deep reef and no-jib like in Christian's picture would be the ticket. At that point though I still thing a really small jib would work better if you could rig it somehow. Maybe a de-riggable baby-stay?

 

[Christian Williams]

I don't know about design speed. Even on the 38, 6 knots is the target for me. More comes natural when running. The controlling factor is discomfort, because in a seaway faster is wet and wild and you still don't make that heroic 200-mile day because the breeze dies off at night and in morning and you suffered for nada.

On a close reach or to windward I regulate the sail plan to provide a pleasant and moderate heel and take the speed that results. Again, six knots benchmark. For efficiency sail plans have to be changed a lot, reefs in and out, foresails changed, angles altered in response to lulls and headers. That is why Commodore Vanderbilt had a crew of 30. I'd rather relax.

When 3-reefed I always fly a scrap of jib, too. It looks better, is why.

 

[N.A.]

@Christian Williams Thanks; I should have been more clear; by design speed, I actually meant "windspeed at which boat is behaving optimally with full main". That will probably be somewhere 12-18 kts apparent wind is my guess, though I'm sure it also depend on point of sail (I am focused on upwind). It is likely a couple of kts of windspeed below where one actually normally decides to reef, since at least I tend to reef when I'm already noticing I'm getting a bit overpowered.

@debonAir Also thanks; I have noticed the boat (new to me) sails very well on 100% alone upwind in 14 kts (true), which has been a very welcome surprise. On Catalina 36's and other similar boats I have found that by 25 kts I need some trimmed-in main to get the boat through the eye of the wind when tacking (and I have to do a lot of upwind where I am, given very consistent wind direction and a dead downwind marina). Have you found that on your boat, or can you tack fine even on jib alone in 20-25+?

 

[Christian Williams]

That sounds right. But personally, I think in terms of heel, not wind speed. Actually, close hauled you can carry full sail in a lot of wind if you feather, or have five gorillas on the rail, or if the water's flat and boat speed is high. We have only one rudder, and excessive heel makes instant weather helm and drag. And a flatter boat points higher. But it also a personal "thing" and some folks love bashing along with the spray flying. I was gonna say with the leeward rail awash, but I have noticed that doesn't happen anymore with the increased freeboard of modern yachts. .

Yeah, above 17 over the deck to windward I'm considering a reef. If racing, no way.

 

[p.gazibara]

On Cinderella (35-2) I added a third reef in MX before we headed to CR and took off across the pacific.

I gave the sailmaker my storm jib and he made it equal in size to that. It’s tiny, but Cinderella didn’t heave to very well in 25+ kts. She would fore-reach at about 2+kts. The third reef settles her right down.

I used it a bunch coming across the pacific as we would be fully powered up with just the genoa, but it was a very rolly experience. Raising any more than the third reef if the wind was pretty far behind us would just blanket the genoa and we would hear a loud bang when the sail would fill back up as we rolled. The third reef was enough to slow the roll down and make life on board betternot enough to blanket the genoa.

It’s also our go-to when the wind is too light to keep the sails full in a big sea. It’s enough to keep steerage and stay on course, yet not enough to flog to death. It also brings the head of the sail below my checkstays, so in heavy weather we don’t have to worry about another set of lines when tacking or gybing.

Soo much better than setting a trysail in my opinion.

-p