• Untitled Document

    Join us on March 29rd, 7pm EST

    for the CBEC Virtual Meeting

    All EYO members and followers are welcome to join the fun and get to know the guest speaker!

    See the link below for login credentials and join us!

    March Meeting Info

    (dismiss this notice by hitting 'X', upper right)

[E35-3] Trans/coupler/mount questions

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
Well we were coming into the fuel dock idle speeds on the transmission….in neutral….threw the dock lines….1.5 knots and went to put it in reverse….Big Bang no reverse! :esad:

Tested at the dock, no foward, no reverse. Nuttin.

I know I have read that there is no rebuilding a HBW-50 that lasts. I believe people were finding a ZF that bolted in? Any info is good. At the dock waiting for sea tow now….

P.S. I knew I jinxed myself by putting new transmission oil in….I paid attention to the transmission, apparently that is the issue with HBW’s.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Just to be extra sure, have you observed the lever movement at the transmission while someone moves the shift lever up at the wheel?
 

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
Just to be extra sure, have you observed the lever movement at the transmission while someone moves the shift lever up at the wheel?
Yes we did and it was moving smoothly.

We initially didn’t try anything more as it seemed like a bad idea to turn the transmission if it had pieces in it.

We are now under tow and it became obvious that the good news was the transmission is fine! Bad news is the coupling is no longer attached to the transmission. Looks like the bolts walked off and the whole shaft settled against the stuffing tube. We have now secured it, but not sure the alignment is right anymore.

Good times!!
 

kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
Yes we did and it was moving smoothly.

We initially didn’t try anything more as it seemed like a bad idea to turn the transmission if it had pieces in it.

We are now under tow and it became obvious that the good news was the transmission is fine! Bad news is the coupling is no longer attached to the transmission. Looks like the bolts walked off and the whole shaft settled against the stuffing tube. We have now secured it, but not sure the alignment is right anymore.

Good times!!
Interesting. I wonder if it would be a good safety measure to place the prop shaft zinc anode a few inches from the strut so the shaft doesn't slide back to far in the event it decouples.
 

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
That’s an interesting idea. A few inches would probably ensure the bearing isn’t starved for water. Might want to measure the spacing between the rudder and shaft :egrin:
 
Last edited:

Rocinante33

Contributing Partner
Interesting. I wonder if it would be a good safety measure to place the prop shaft zinc anode a few inches from the strut so the shaft doesn't slide back to far in the event it decouples.
A simple hose clamp will also do that.

If, as it was, the coupling detached from the prop shaft instead of from the transmission and if put into reverse, the prop could spin right out and the boat could join Davey Jones!
 

Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
Looks like the bolts walked off and the whole shaft settled against the stuffing tube
That is a fairly common occurrence and can be solved with installing the bolts with fresh lock washers and Loctite. Happened to a friends boat last season and his brand new prop slammed into his rudder ! Definitely check your alignment before you torque it up. Good thing about a PSS shaft seal it holds the shaft & coupler against the trans flange.
 

Afrakes

Sustaining Member
Well we were coming into the fuel dock idle speeds on the transmission….in neutral….threw the dock lines….1.5 knots and went to put it in reverse….Big Bang no reverse! :esad:

Tested at the dock, no foward, no reverse. Nuttin.

I know I have read that there is no rebuilding a HBW-50 that lasts. I believe people were finding a ZF that bolted in? Any info is good. At the dock waiting for sea tow now….

P.S. I knew I jinxed myself by putting new transmission oil in….I paid attention to the transmission, apparently that is the issue with HBW’s.
How many hours on the engine and tranny?
 

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
How many hours on the engine and tranny?
Well the hour meter says 500 and change, but pretty sure it isn’t the first??? Original engine and transmission though.

Since we are the 3rd owners, don’t exactly know the whole story.
 
Last edited:

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
Here’s some pictures of the issue, we have a misalignment problem….

I can take the urethane coupler off to put new bolts in, but if I can’t get them to align it doesn’t matter. I tried putting my foot on the shaft and pushing down, no real give. Same with pulling up on the transmission.

Looks like ~3/8” misalignment. Probably why it worked itself loose. Nuts left their threads in the bolts on some.

I found that the FWD engine mount screw had backed out up, probably from excessive vibration, but from my unlearned eye doesn’t look like the engine mounts have failed??? This is my first thought, maybe the engine is sitting low??

82CC7786-0965-4491-8D06-C786D68DB06D.jpeg
F9537E29-0A7C-4867-88AF-EBA288EC00D0.jpeg
7B9BF5BA-0047-429A-8A3B-3355B36A7C9D.jpeg
D33326EB-5969-4779-8818-F4F75B13ABD8.jpeg
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
A long time ago, like over a decade, I replaced all the mounts on our M25XP. They were slowly collapsing from the rubber compound getting soft and changing the elasticity. One, that was particularly hard to view, was down to metal on metal. The engine ended up needing some frp risers under the new mounts. The engine steel mounts were, all along, too high on the mount bolts.
My partly-educated guess is that you need to replace the mounts and do a fresh alignment. While, at the time, I did pay the yard to do this, I could have done it on my own. Maybe perhaps.

Our news Betamarine came with a good drawing showing how to correctly mount the new mounts that came with the engine package.
(The 'learning curve' never completely flattens out, does it?)

BTW, the gross misalignment pictured probably would cause, IMHO, the bolts to vibrate loose or finally break.
 
Last edited:

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Looks for sure like new mounts are in order and a way to secure them to the engine bed better. This recent thread (and embedded older thread) discusses just this. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/m-30-sound-right-motor-mount-issue.19075/

I would bet that urethane drive saver was installed as a shortcut to make up for the misalignment.

Check out IsoFlex mounts. I have been very happy with mine, as have others on here. https://isoflextech.com/products/engine-mounts/s-type-adjusting-stud-engine-and-machinery/

Some good info here too: https://marinehowto.com/replacing-motor-mounts/
 

JSM

Member III
I had a similar alignment issue five years ago when we purchased our 34-2. I replaced the motor mounts and in the process found that the holes for the lag screws holding the mounts in place were stripped. I had vibration problems after the new mounts were installed due to the fact that the lag screws were not holding the mounts in position.
I ended up lag bolting steel plates to the engine bearers that had nuts welded to their undersides so that the engine mounts could be machine bolted in place. Everything has stayed in place since.
More info here.

 

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
Ok, so after some excellent boat yoga sessions, and lots of cussing like a sailor, my brother and I were able to get things reasonably aligned and back together. Still need to source some nuts, more info below.

Like all boat projects, the more we got into it, the more amazing it was that things were running correctly at all before.

First I went to put the socket on the top lock nut of the port engine mount. Why can’t I get the socket on there??? Oh! There are no nuts on the top of that mount, sweet!

How am I going to get the rest loosened, I can’t get a wrench in there? Oh, it doesn’t matter, they are all loose!

Need to adjust the motor to port, gotta loosen the lag screws….oh would you look at the that, the aft one has walked all the way up against the bottom of the engine…

So yeah, all sarcasm aside, our engine mounts were a mess of loose or missing things. It was odd though that everything could be tightened, and nothing was stripped, making me wonder why it was all so wrong.

The alignment went pretty straight foward once I got a wrench that would fit between the bottom of the mount and the engine support, seems like their strategy had been “its aligned when all mounts are bottomed out”. Can’t figure out how else you would end up with this situation.

During alignment we had removed the drive saver (pulling the shaft coupling directly against the transmission output flange), and I think I found out why the drive saver had been added. Not so much because they wanted the protection, I think it was being used to move the shaft running surface between it and the shaft seal to a new location. While aligning, the shaft seal was leaking copious amounts of water. Once the shaft is back in the saver location, the drip was once again a drip instead of a flood. This also tested that our bilge pump does in fact work great!

The original cause of failure also became obvious. I had bought replacement socket head cap screws of the same length for the drive saver, and while putting them on the transmission flange found I could not get complete thread engagement. On closer inspection, if I went from 1-1/4” bolts, to 1-1/2” then they would strike nuts on the back of the transmission. But as is, you don’t get complete thread engagement of the nut. Looking at the ones that fell off, I can now see the previous owner had only attained around 2 threads on each nut. You can see the close tolerance below. It’s actually the one but on the right that strikes a longer bolt (shaft is clocked in a way that makes it hard to see)

DFE622A0-619F-4816-B7A2-91D12FDFE0DC.jpeg

Takeaways and questions:

1. Have others put a drive saver on a HBW-50 and run into the same issue? Thinking I might have to make a custom set of bolts.
2. Need to keep checking my mounts. The nuts are fine thread M16, so having to special order new ones, but probably should replace my mounts outright soon.
3. What are peoples tips for loosening the lock nut on a stuffing box? I now own two HUGE adjustable wrenches, but the corrosion on the nuts seems to have welded them together, as shown below? I put more force than I was comfortable with while remembering this was keeping the ocean out of my boat, and nothing budged.

7CA7D75E-3F1A-42DC-8358-16B6645F41D6.jpeg
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Couple of observations (and thanks for the great photos). Same stock stuffing box that came with our boat. Same corrugated white bilge hose.
Unless it's newer and just discolored, that hose is way overdue for replacement, imho.
Our stuffing box did loosen with force on a couple of wrenches. Perhaps soaking (with something like PB Blaster) the interface where the two pieces of bronze screw together will help?
 

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
Couple of observations (and thanks for the great photos). Same stock stuffing box that came with our boat. Same corrugated white bilge hose.
Unless it's newer and just discolored, that hose is way overdue for replacement, imho.
Our stuffing box did loosen with force on a couple of wrenches. Perhaps soaking (with something like PB Blaster) the interface where the two pieces of bronze screw together will help?
Good info Loren. I will have to add that hose to the ever growing list. When I removed a side panel (normally screwed on) for more access, I also found that one of our cockpit drain hoses had been “repaired” with self amalgamating tape :esad:

I did soak the connection with some PB blaster, but I will do more when it comes back to our house for winter. Then it also won’t be keeping the ocean out and if something tears, well then I guess I get to do a stuffing box….but at least I won’t be sinking :p
 

Hagar2sail

Member III
Blogs Author
Also, comment for the moderators, should this thread title be changed since it has become more about the shaft connection / engine mounts then the HBW? Though I have yet to put her in foward and confirmed the HBW survived, knock on wood.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Also, comment for the moderators, should this thread title be changed since it has become more about the shaft connection / engine mounts then the HBW? Though I have yet to put her in foward and confirmed the HBW survived, knock on wood.
Changes made.
Observation: anytime someone sez "Hurth 50" the duck comes down... :)
 
Top