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E36RH - IOR boat for racing and cruising?

EwannaB

Junior Member
The E36RH makes no pretenses about being an IOR design. My question is... does this particular IOR boat exhibit 'extreme' stereotype bad IOR sailing characteristics?

I'm looking for a racer/cruiser to first use on the Great Lakes (incl e.g. Chicago-Mac), but then migrate to offshore racing (TransPac?) mixed with some bluewater cruising. I'm an old International 14 sailor so trying to even casually race a 'slow' boat would kill me... just want to sometimes be in the hunt when racing on a boat that sails well (like my J22).

That said I'm also too old to be uncomfortable for days on end trying to cruise on a boat with 'bad' IOR sailing characteristics (e.g. the E37 I've raced on).

Wondering where the E36RH fits in this spectrum... actual E36RH sailing experience appreciated.

Thanks!
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Welcome to the group, and you are in luck. :cool:

One of the regulars that checks in here ran the Ericson racing program for the E-36RH and knows a LOT about its sailing characteristics.
:clap:
I note that you reference the "bad" habits of some IOR designs, which means that you also know that there were good all-around sailing boats built to that rule too.
I have crewed for going on two decades on an E-33RH and can personally testify that we pressed on in heavy air twice without a broach while watching a C&C 35 spin out nearby and do a photo-op quality broach each time.
I was driving and enjoying the ride! And, I am just an ordinary boat herder when it comes to helming.

All boats are compromises, depending on wind 'n' wave, but I am very impressed with the Holland designs for Ericson.

Worthless trivia: back in the 80's I did a little crew time on a Ray Richards-designed Ranger 24, and we could consistently stay ahead of the "more famous" Kirby-designed quarter ton SJ-24... we used to call their downwind behavior "spreader washing."
Both designs were quarter tonners, but Ray Richards was better at the nuances of it, IMHO. :nerd:

Regards,
Loren
:egrin:

ps: another E36RH thread: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?t=3308&referrerid=28
 
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EwannaB

Junior Member
Thanks Loren,

Agree there are some 'good sailing' IOR boats out there. From my review of the E36RH lines/specs I'm thinking she might be one... but looking for 'real' experience. I also understand all boats a compromise for my expressed needs. Will very much look forward to reply from Ericson Race Team...maybe can get comparison to I14? :) Thanks!
 

Mort Fligelman

Member III
.02 worth on 36RH

Used to race against one very casually.....if you can call racing casual.....

Nice guy owned the boat.....Old sails.....not a great sailor.....not the best maintained boat.....but given light air.....it was a ROCKET.....did a horizon job on a lot of very fast boats whose PHRF was almost impossible to beat...but they did it...

Like I said.....my .02 worth
 

EwannaB

Junior Member
Thanks for replies. For keeping this thread moving forward on track I want to restate that I'm considering the E36RH - Ron Holland IOR design.

I'm not surprised re confirmation of Ericson pedigree or that the E36RH is a 'fast' racer/cruiser.

I am however looking for insight into how well this particular IOR design handles/sails... i.e. 'comfortably' and safely... particularily with the air and sea up. I'm not into excessive spreader washing as Loren puts it...or getting sick riding a bucking horse to weather days on end...... been there done that on other IOR boats. Wondering where the E36RH fits in this picture?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
How much IOR is too much?

One semi-educated guess is that the way the designer handled the stern section will have a lot to do with how the bow section reacts to seas... and thence how the crew comfort is affected.
The Holland-designed E-33 actually has quite a "normal" lower transom that seems to invoke good reserve buoyancy as speed picks up. This is marked contrast to some Petersen designs in our moorage that have so much tuck-up aft that save for a tiny transom high off the water might as well be double-enders. Matter of fact, that's why they handle so rudely down wind with a chute, like a double ender!
OK, just an opinion... and it's mine....
:rolleyes:

The other determiner of comfort as seas build, imho, is the hull shape forward. The more V-ish it is, the more of a soft landing you get when whacking into steep seas. I have not been in identical sea states in the Holland designed E boats, but have enjoyed a smooth ride in big lumpy seas in the King designed hulls. Like many boats in the 70's ad 80's, the King designs were "influenced" by the IOR as a necessity to tweak sales.

My take on it is that the Holland designs for Ericson were less radical regarding the oddities that the IOR could demand, and this was a good fit for the B K designs that the company was famous for.
This opinion only worth about .02 on a good day, or less.

Loren
 

EwannaB

Junior Member
I'm getting a lot of value for 2 cents on this thread....thanks! With all due respect I'm dying to hear from Ericson race program reference... any way to get this thread on their radar?
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
I'm getting a lot of value for 2 cents on this thread....thanks! With all due respect I'm dying to hear from Ericson race program reference... any way to get this thread on their radar?

Seth checks in every week or two.

LB
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
Sorry for being late....

The 36 RH is a really great racer/cruiser, with a very good interior layout for offshore sailing.

In light air it is a rocket under any rule (of course you need a good bottom, good sails, no cruising gear and good boat prep-like any boat), and on all points of sail.

For Great Lakes and Mac racing, a well prepared 36 will do extremely well-of that I am sure.

In terms of habits, you should have no fear when in cruising mode. Any good IOR boat will behave fairly well offshore on any point of sail in a variety of conditions when in CRUISE mode-meaning you are reducing sail at the appropriate times.

It is only when these boats are pressed (big kite in big breeze) that they can get hard to control downwind (they are always good upwind). These habits are due a combination of a tall-ish, but definitely high aspect sailplan, short WL for the LOA, and a hull shape which does not allow a very clean exit of water past the stern section (due to rating considerations). IOR boats are also heavy by today's standards, which inhibits surfing. So when they are pressed, instead of "busting a move" and surfing, they tend to just settle a little deeper in the water, which increases drag, and overall loading, which hurts controllability. The short (ish) waterline also limits speed potential, so all of the energy from big breeze gets translated (again) to loading the boat up.. Also the tall skinny sails (spinnakers in this case) can really oscillate when running downwind, and create forces back and forth which lead to the roly-poly stuff.

Now that you know why the typical 80's IOR boats can be handful downwind in big breeze, remember everything is relative. The point of reference is newer designs with lower aspect sailplans, lighter displacement, and undistorted stern sections. Naturally they will be easier to control in these conditions, but it does not mean the IOR boats are "bad" boats. There are MANY old IOR boats cruising the world today bringing their owners swiftly and safely through all kinds of weather.

As for Transpac-I would suggest Pac Cup instead of the LA-Transpac. You will get a fleet with similar boats which have similar characteristics, and you will have fun. True, if you want to push the boat to its limit downwind in big breeze you will need some very good drivers, but frankly this will be true of any boat-just a little more so with an IOR type boat. The only bummer would be trying to sail a RH36 downwind against something like a Mumm 36, which would surf away from you in those conditions (but with a much faster rating).

In fairness, if a Transpac-type race is the top priority I would consider a more downwind oriented boat. But if cruising, Mac races, and general PHRF are equal considerations you will be happy.

If you are in a fleet of racer/cruisers in a similar rating band you will be in fine shape. If it gets too hairy, take the kite down and pole out a jib, and the boat will be tame as a pussycatThe 36 RH is a really great racer/cruiser, with a very good interior layout for offshore sailing.

In light air it is a rocket under any rule (of course you need a good bottom, good sails, no cruising gear and good boat prep-like any boat), and on all points of sail.

For Great Lakes and Mac racing, a well prepared 36 will do extremely well-of that I am sure.

In terms of habits, you should have no fear when in cruising mode. Any good IOR boat will behave fairly well offshore on any point of sail in a variety of conditions when in CRUISE mode-meaning you are reducing sail at the appropriate times.

It is only when these boats are pressed (big kite in big breeze) that they can get hard to control downwind (they are always good upwind). These habits are due a combination of a tall-ish, but definitely high aspect sailplan, short WL for the LOA, and a hull shape which does not allow a very clean exit of water past the stern section (due to rating considerations). IOR boats are also heavy by today's standards, which inhibits surfing. So when they are pressed, instead of "busting a move" and surfing, they tend to just settle a little deeper in the water, which increases drag, and overall loading, which hurts controllability. The short (ish) waterline also limits speed potential, so all of the energy from big breeze gets translated (again) to loading the boat up.. Also the tall skinny sails (spinnakers in this case) can really oscillate when running downwind, and create forces back and forth which lead to the roly-poly stuff.

Now that you know why the typical 80's IOR boats can be handful downwind in big breeze, remember everything is relative. The point of reference is newer designs with lower aspect sailplans, lighter displacement, and undistorted stern sections. Naturally they will be easier to control in these conditions, but it does not mean the IOR boats are "bad" boats. There are MANY old IOR boats cruising the world today bringing their owners swiftly and safely through all kinds of weather.

As for Transpac-I would suggest Pac Cup instead of the LA-Transpac. You will get a fleet with similar boats which have similar characteristics, and you will have fun. True, if you want to push the boat to its limit downwind in big breeze you will need some very good drivers, but frankly this will be true of any boat-just a little more so with an IOR type boat. The only bummer would be trying to sail a RH36 downwind against something like a Mumm 36, which would surf away from you in those conditions (but with a much faster rating).

In fairness, if a Transpac-type race is the top priority I would consider a more downwind oriented boat. But if cruising, Mac races, and general PHRF are equal considerations you will be happy.:egrin:

If you are in a fleet of racer/cruisers in a similar rating band you will be in fine shape. If it gets too hairy, take the kite down and pole out a jib, and the boat will be tame as a pussycat.:cool:

Sorry to be so long-winded :nerd:, but there was a lot of ground to cover. The 36 is one of the better boats of its breed. It is strong, fast, and quick for the rating when prepared correctly. If you like the boat and the price is right you could do a lot worse.


Happy Trails,

S
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
1990, Ericson 36 Ron Holland - Mackinac Winner - 42.02

I am a owner of a Ericson 33RH, I have been very impressed with the design and construction. Tons of storage and a fifty gallon diesel tank, huge water tank, tons of storage, great layout inside the boat, great navigation table and a ton of teak inside the boat. My wife is very happy with the performance of the boat as she loves to race.:cool:
 

jmcpeak

Junior Viking
Here's just one good example of where a 36RH performs.

During the Hook race this year, (Racine Yacht Club) the first 5 hours was a reach and the next 15 were a beat, a good 18-20 knot breeze out of the north.

The Hook started at 11AM Saturday morning, Sunday morning around 8AM after the long beat through the night we were looking at boats around us.

About 15 minutes later, this big blue boat with some very expensive sails makes a tack behind us - big crew, all out on the rail.

So the reason I bring this up, that boat that tacked behind us was "Tango In Blue" a CM1200 - she went on to take line honors I believe.

So after 20 hours of racing, most of it beating, a 81' 36RH beat a 95' CM1200.

I did not have a large crew this year, later on in the race we made many mental mistakes due to some lack of sleep plus not really knowing the winds around Door County - so we finished, but not well.

But after a good solid beat, my 36RH was ahead of a CM1200 - if that doesn't say something about her - I don't know what will.

Jason
 
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EwannaB

Junior Member
Seth - Thanks for reply!

I am new to this forum and for the first few days I got an email every time there was a new post. But the emails stopped and I never looked... till just now.. to see you replied long ago! Thank-you! And sorry for my late reply.

I get your general IOR discussion. That said, all IOR boats are not created equal I'm sure. I've been on some bad ones... 'fast' for day but while broaching in 7 knots of breeze with a good driver (e.g. C&C29) may be ok on a race course with a bunch of guys on board, wife may not appreciate getting dumped out of bunk in middle of night while cruising - something I want to avoid in advance!!! But it sounds like the E-36RH is on the 'good end' of the IOR fault spectrm... encouraging.

I am more encouraged on two other points you made....

First that you would not be 'concerned' to take this boat out on the ocean for long passages (race or cruise) ... from either a structural/'safety' standpoint or handling - even if in big breeze. That's important to me.

Secondly that 'fun' can still be had racing this boat this day in age. I'm not too concerned about a Mumm 36 planing past me on a ride to Hawaii... I just want to have fun sailing against boats of E-36RH vintage, while keeping mast out of the water and wife in bunk. And then cruise back up PNW - sounds like this can all happen.

I'm going to look at one in a couple of weeks. Hope I can ask more specific questions about what I might see/find.

THANKS! And further thoughts also appreciated...
Doug
 

EwannaB

Junior Member
Here's just one good example of where a 36RH performs.

During the Hook race this year, (Racine Yacht Club) the first 5 hours was a reach and the next 15 were a beat, a good 18-20 knot breeze out of the north.

The Hook started at 11AM Saturday morning, Sunday morning around 8AM after the long beat through the night we were looking at boats around us.

About 15 minutes later, this big blue boat with some very expensive sails makes a tack behind us - big crew, all out on the rail.

So the reason I bring this up, that boat that tacked behind us was "Tango In Blue" a CM1200 - she went on to take line honors I believe.

So after 20 hours of racing, most of it beating, a 81' 36RH beat a 95' CM1200.

I did not have a large crew this year, later on in the race we made many mental mistakes due to some lack of sleep plus not really knowing the winds around Door County - so we finished, but not well.

But after a good solid beat, my 36RH was ahead of a CM1200 - if that doesn't say something about her - I don't know what will.

Jason


I'm not too surprised that the E-36RH is fast for it's vintage, and still reasonably so today.

My main concern however is how 'properly' she sails... some IOR boats are fast but don't sail 'properly' (not sure best word to use for 'properly'... but broaching in 7 knots of breeze - wth a good driver - is not it!).

This concern is more rooted in my desire to also cruise the boat.. two handed with my wife... v.s. racing time with a bunch of guys whom might even enjoy giving mast a drink (me included).

Thanks,
Doug
 

Seth

Sustaining Partner
From Webb Chiles on SA...

"Did someone say IOR...?



I've followed your "where are the old IOR boats" with interest because four of my five circumnavigations have been on IOR boats, including two roundings of Cape Horn, one of which was the first solo by an American and was part of what was then the fastest solo circumnavigation in a monohull.

The boats were EGREGIOUS, an Ericson 37 One Tonner pictured above; RESURGAM, an S&S designed She 36 3/4 tonner; and THE HAWKE OF TUONELA, my present boat, a Heritage One Ton.

EGREGIOUS may have been the first boat with a modern fin keel/spade rudder hull to go around Cape Horn, though I can not state that as a fact.

Demonstrably these boats are seaworthy. In them I have spent well over a year in the Southern Ocean and survived Force 12 conditions more than a dozen times. Their reputations for being squirrelly downwind may be based on racing conditions when they are being pressed hard under spinnaker, but all my boats have been easily controlled by either Aries or Monitor wind-vanes, even under spinnaker, though I don't keep them up in much over twenty knots of wind.

I do not love IOR boats, They are just what I could afford. The most expensive was RESURGAM, which cost me $35,000 used in 1983. Not bad for a Cape Horner.

Webb Chiles"

Very well put!!

S
 

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Seth

Sustaining Partner
big apologies!

Sorry guys! Somehow I totaly missed Ewanna's last post-so I will get to that in a minute.

As for CS, who said the 33 RH was not an IOR boat?? It is and always has been.
That said, a boat can be designed to IOR without pushing the measurement points to extremes. Doing this will get the boat to the lowest possible rating, but will also provoke some of the less desireable sailing characteristics. Both the RH 36 and 33 are designed right to the IOR, but were not pushed to extremes to get the last .5 ft of rating advantage, which makes them both pretty nice sailing boats.

I will come back shortly to answer Ewanna.

Cheers,m
S
 
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Seth

Sustaining Partner
Ewanna (Doug) wrote: My main concern however is how 'properly' she sails... some IOR boats are fast but don't sail 'properly' (not sure best word to use for 'properly'... but broaching in 7 knots of breeze - wth a good driver - is not it!).

This concern is more rooted in my desire to also cruise the boat.. two handed with my wife... v.s. racing time with a bunch of guys whom might even enjoy giving mast a drink (me included).


Seth replies: Chill Doug.
Anyone who tells you a boat will broach in 7 knots of breeze with a good driver has got something very wrong. You would need to have the worst possible sail trim and weight placement for something like this to happen, and even then if you had a truly good driver I still can't imagine any IOR boat I ever saw doing this.

More to the point, the E36 RH is a really sweet sailing boat in all conditions. When cruising, do the right thing and get the big sails down, and she will be tame as a kitten upwind or down. She will sail with a autopilot perfectly, and when it comes to having to go upwind, few designs do it better (if any).

Sorry for the delay in replying, and I hope we are square.. Anything else please let me know.

Cheers,

S
 
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