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E38 shoal draft

PDXLaser

New Member
Greetings and Happy New Year,
I'm interested in a 1980 E38, a gorgeous boat with all the right care, upgrades, and more. The boat has the 4'11" keel that was apparently standard in that generation. I've read the boat is "tender" in that it heels more than one with a full keel. I also understand that a typical shoal draft doesn't point as well. I'm willing to adapt to these realities, as the trade-offs seem fair in relation to our intended use of the boat (coastal cruising). I've searched the forum for info on the shoal draft 38, but haven't found discussion addressing these issues. I'm interested in the experiences of any owners of the early-80s E38 shoal draft.
  • What degree to weather is the closest you can point?
  • How stable is steerage in 25-35 kits under proper reefing?
  • Does the boat rock 'n roll on the hook more than others the same size?
Of course, I'm interested in other questions regarding this vintage of Ericson, but the shoal draft is a primary concern at the moment. Looking forward to your responses.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
"Spirit Moon", up in Sidney BC?

A cubic ton of money was spend on that boat, from the photos and description.
Some very nice upgrades for cruising.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
The realities are theoretically real, but nobody ever said a shoal keel was unsafe or a problem.

It's very hard to compare keels, even on the same model. Somebody would have to own both, or see both sail side by side.

All boats have some "X" factor, especially older boats like ours. If it isn't the keel, it's the engine, or the bottom, or the mast ...

I have never heard an Ericson owner here say he hates his shoal draft keel. Usually they love it and feel it performs well.
 

kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
Tenderness

Greetings and Happy New Year,
I'm interested in a 1980 E38, a gorgeous boat with all the right care, upgrades, and more. The boat has the 4'11" keel that was apparently standard in that generation. I've read the boat is "tender" in that it heels more than one with a full keel. I also understand that a typical shoal draft doesn't point as well. I'm willing to adapt to these realities, as the trade-offs seem fair in relation to our intended use of the boat (coastal cruising). I've searched the forum for info on the shoal draft 38, but haven't found discussion addressing these issues. I'm interested in the experiences of any owners of the early-80s E38 shoal draft.
  • What degree to weather is the closest you can point?
  • How stable is steerage in 25-35 kits under proper reefing?
  • Does the boat rock 'n roll on the hook more than others the same size?
Of course, I'm interested in other questions regarding this vintage of Ericson, but the shoal draft is a primary concern at the moment. Looking forward to your responses.

I have a 1981 E38 hull #53 with the shoal draft keel and don't find her tender at all. Now my boat is setup for long distance cruising so is fairly heavy, the last time we were hauled they said 20,000lbs which seemed to me to be way on the high side based on my measured draft. To be on the safe side I call my draft as 5ft 6 inches.

In my opinion a boats tenderness (healing) is all relative, is a J22 tender when you have the rail in the water? On my E38 once she is in the groove she powers through the chop easily and to be honest I've not managed to push the rail under even in 20 to 30 knots...maybe the benefit of a heavily loaded cruising boat. I can easily point 40 degrees with my current bagged out sails, with new sails maybe a bit higher. Now balancing the boats sail plan is something you need to be aware of as she can be easily overpowered once the wind comes up over 15 knots and weather helm will be an issue unless you reef. I've found from experience that I can sail faster and easier in high winds +15kts with just the 150 Genoa partially reefed and without the main up. Now this will likely change with a new main sail that has better shape and my new 135 Genoa.

I've attached a YouTube video link below I produced showing her "tenderness" on the long reach back from Block Island, RI to Groton, CT in a solid 15 to 20 knots with just the Genoa out. The video part starts at the 5 minute mark in the video shortly after leaving Block Island. I think my wife's finger nail marks are still on the starboard coaming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPgWZkObKWQ
 
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PDXLaser

New Member
Thanks Kiwisailor. Do you have the 5'6" keel or is that what your cruising weight brings it to? Encouraged to know there's no complaint about pointing. That assumption was based on my experience sailing other shoal/wing keel boats. As an old San Juan 21 sailor I do agree, "tender" is relative:nerd:

Thanks for the video. Looks like a fun cruise.
 

kiwisailor

Member III
Blogs Author
Thanks Kiwisailor. Do you have the 5'6" keel or is that what your cruising weight brings it to? Encouraged to know there's no complaint about pointing. That assumption was based on my experience sailing other shoal/wing keel boats. As an old San Juan 21 sailor I do agree, "tender" is relative:nerd:

Thanks for the video. Looks like a fun cruise.

The shoal draft 4’11” is factory spec at 14,900lb displacement. I’ve measured my E38 from the waterline and I’m nearer 5’4”

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=2310
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Thread drift and old memories

The mention of a SJ-21 brings back great sailing memories. In the late 70's there was a small fleet in PDX and then (and for years longer) a big fleet of them in the Seattle area. Fast boats, as I recall.

We raced and cruised our Ranger 20 in a large Ranger fleet on the Columbia, and often shared a course with an equally large Cal 20 fleet. The San Juan's were almost never out there, altho there was a large SJ-24 fleet racing separately.

Apropos of whatever, I and Kathy will always fondly recall our drive up to Fort Warden for a Ranger nationals, and we were part of a caravan of Rangers on trailers, towing up together. We had a number of SJ-21's on trailers pass us going the other way, as they had just completed their own nationals the week prior. That must have been in '78 or '79. They were all happy and smiling and waving at us, in passing.

More than just a saying, those were indeed "good old days" of small boat racing and cruising. The meetings and social occasions with our 50-boat one design group were a blast, too. Heck we used to routinely get up to 25 Ranger 20's on a starting line.

OK. Back to your scheduled program.
:)
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Windward Performance and Keels

After reading a short letter to GOB in the current issue from Bob Perry, bemoaning the lack of identifiable design criteria in current production boats, perhaps it would be good to consider that this thread started with some assumptions about windward performance...
It's really hard to ignore "opinions" that come at us at near the speed of light these days on the 'net, ever so much faster than we used to read them in magazines. Also, those print media articles were, to some extent, vetted by editors for at least gross bias and adequate science. Hopefully. :nerd:

It's hard to ignore all this perfect modern storm of earnest-sounding opinion from people with qualifications that are near un-checkable...
Mine, included. :rolleyes:

Still, it has not been that long since real Naval Architects, by name, designed boats and we could kind of bank on their all-around expertise. Which is to say that when Bruce King developed a signature look and performance in a line, like the Ericson's, you could be sure that he was designing his boats from the outside inwards. i.e. all the performance was there first, and then a livable interior was built inside of it. He was not alone, of course. You could say that about the Cal's, and all those great Tartan's. Also for some of my favorite designers, like Ray Richards, Carl Schumacher, George Olson, and Robert Smith Sr, and of course Mr. Perry.

It's not that you cannot get a decent sailing boat out of a "design committee" but it's really really hard to do. And, lucky when it succeeds.
About 20 years ago the ads for Euro boats started trumpeting the name of a designer or team of designers that had designed the Interior for a new boat. (As tho the persons named for designing the hull and rig had no idea how a family would eat, sleep, navigate, and p__p inside that hull.) :rolleyes:

Cycling back to the pontification door where I entered... I believe that's the reason that the "standard" keel for the E-38 was the shorter draft. And it was designed to sail well with that keel. (!)

Of course one can get some more pointing potential with a deeper fin, but in the real world all the inner harbors in my part of the world are maintained about six feet of draft at low water, and usually a bit more. Having visited a lot of ports in the last 30 years and having driven our club's dredge for over 10, it's a subject familiar to me.

A good friend of mine has an E-38 with the 6' 7" keel, and is indeed touching bottom very briefly at low tide sometimes in the fall low-water period.
Our Olson draws 6', and has very weatherly sailing performance... because it was designed for that keel. Ditto for the Ericson 33 that I sail on sometimes.

Sorry to natter on, but some common underlying assumptions in this thread seemed to warrant some perspective.

Regards,
Loren
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
There are two ways new boats seem to be designed. Design a condominium and try somehow to fit a hull around it. Make sure it sails in 10-15kn of wind and ignore the fact that it pounds your fillings out. The ladies will ensure you sell a million of them. Or build an insane speed machine that many of the guys will love. It is useless for cruising and the Ladies will hate it and guarantee that it will go away when the expenses start to build up. Also, computers now guarantee that the absolute minimum of materials will go into the building of the boat. Sometimes good design is sacrificed for production efficiency. Fake wood is used and the interiors look just like they came from Ikea.

This is why I have an "old" Ericson. I can pop rocks at 6kn and back off and keep going without even a "smile". Try that in your Hunter. It even does 2 1/2kn with not a wind ripple showing on the water.
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
84' Ericson 381 Standard Keel with Mars Bulb

Hello Folks:

I felt compelled to jump in here as a E381 sailor with the standard keel 5' draft but with an additional 660# bulb added by the previous owner. I sail primarily in South Texas in around Corpus Christi where our typical "standard" wind is 15 -20 MPH more days then not. Our boat sails to weather easily, I usually run either a (new) Quantum 110% or an older 130%, (have a 150% but it doesn't get much use). We race the boat in the local club races and usually place in the 150 Class, I think I've dipped a rail once or twice in 20+ weather leg. I do not push the boat as hard as other racers. I've sailed a number of boats over the years and she is not tender, plus with the 5' draft we can get into our favorite anchorages. I thinks she is a great blend of performance, cruising comfort and stability. Mars keels built the bub and maintains the engineering records on the design. Hope this helps.
 

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Bolo

Contributing Partner
Real world

The realities are theoretically real, but nobody ever said a shoal keel was unsafe or a problem.

It's very hard to compare keels, even on the same model. Somebody would have to own both, or see both sail side by side.

All boats have some "X" factor, especially older boats like ours. If it isn't the keel, it's the engine, or the bottom, or the mast ...

I have never heard an Ericson owner here say he hates his shoal draft keel. Usually they love it and feel it performs well.

Christian: Probably the best real world explanation of the difference between a shoal vs. full keel that I’ve read. :egrin:
 

u079721

Contributing Partner
Greetings and Happy New Year,
I'm interested in a 1980 E38, a gorgeous boat with all the right care, upgrades, and more. The boat has the 4'11" keel that was apparently standard in that generation. I've read the boat is "tender" in that it heels more than one with a full keel. I also understand that a typical shoal draft doesn't point as well. I'm willing to adapt to these realities, as the trade-offs seem fair in relation to our intended use of the boat (coastal cruising). I've searched the forum for info on the shoal draft 38, but haven't found discussion addressing these issues. I'm interested in the experiences of any owners of the early-80s E38 shoal draft.
  • What degree to weather is the closest you can point?
  • How stable is steerage in 25-35 kits under proper reefing?
  • Does the boat rock 'n roll on the hook more than others the same size?
Of course, I'm interested in other questions regarding this vintage of Ericson, but the shoal draft is a primary concern at the moment. Looking forward to your responses.

We owned a 1989 model with the shoal draft keel. We always felt the boat was a bit tender, but not necessarily because of the keel. It just didn't seem as if the Ericsons were as stiff as some other boats, like a Tartan 40 that we used to sail with for example. But the boat was very easily driven, so that reducing sail was not a problem for performance. Sailing on the Great Lakes we went with a 130 rather than a 150 genny because we just didn't need the horsepower. We usually found ourselves beginning to reef at 12 kts true wind speed. By the way, we found that once outfitted for cruising our shoal draft of 4'11" was closer to 5'2", if not more. So I sure would not want to be starting with 6'7"!
 
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RHenegar

Member I
Wind angle vs true tacking angle

I have been crewing on a friends E38 with a shoal draft. The boat isn't tender, but it also doesn't seem to point as well as a lot of boat. In a race last fall on a long upwind leg we made 15 tacks. I measure the tack angles off of the GPS track and the average was around 120 degree or more and we held a constant AWA of around 35 degrees. Sails trimmed hard and telltales flying. Last race, with new sails, most of the fleet was pointing higher then we were. We only had a couple of clean tacks on that race, one tack was 121 degrees and the other around 116 degrees. Not enough of a sample to determine what if any improvement was made with the new sails. My shoal draft E32 with not so new sail is pretty consistently in the 120 degree range for clean tacks. My problem is I never hear anyone talking about these COG tack angles, which in my mind are what really count, so I don't know if those tack angles are good or bad.

On the other hand my friends E-38 seems to be a rocket ship down wind (Non Spin). On the two occasions that I crewed, we were outrunning the fleet on the down wind legs. Beam reach, close reach, broad reach the boat seems to very competitive. Close hauled, not so much. P.S Reef early.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
You might be collecting the wrong information for the answer you seek.

Observe a fleet of identical boats--Lasers, let's say. Everything is the same, sails, foils, hull.

Now ask yourself why one boat points better, one boat is faster downwind, one boat heels too much, and one tacks in 39.3 degrees and another in 37.9 degrees.
 

Martin King

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
You might be collecting the wrong information for the answer you seek.

Observe a fleet of identical boats--Lasers, let's say. Everything is the same, sails, foils, hull.

Now ask yourself why one boat points better, one boat is faster downwind, one boat heels too much, and one tacks in 39.3 degrees and another in 37.9 degrees.

This exact procedure was used to develop the delta keel configuration. Trial lasers were set up with different foils and matched raced.

Quote, " Of the two finalists, we could not find any difference when on the wind; however, suprisingly off the wind there was a marked difference.
The winning delta keel shape was used on the later Ericsons. This shape, with it's longer root chord for any given area, extends the trailing edge
/fairbody intersection further aft providing the added bonus of reducing CLF forward shift with increasing heel angle." Bruce King-from his book
The Unicorn, the Hawk, and the Frog. (not in print as of this time)

Martin
 

Mark F

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Martin,

I know that that was your Dad's job but building a bunch of keels and racing them against each other sounds like a lot of fun!
 
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