E38 Traveler Replacement - Harken

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Ending my hijack of Mr. Bugner's Sea Hood thread

I've put in about 6 hours of work trying to remove the 20+ screws in the old Schaefer traveler. I have just one more screw left in the starboard side of the seahood before I can remove the track and channel. That one is a bugger because the RT tool can't get in there unless I lift the seahood on that side. No other form of persuasion has worked so far. At least it turns. Many of them had to have the impact tool treatment to free them from the 5200 and the plastic inserts. On others the nut was loose and I used to tool to get them to where I could spin them off with my fingertip.

At the extreme opposite end the two screws that go into just the channel, no nuts, are pretty frozen. I put a little spray-on CRC type lubricant on them to see if that will help.

Thinking about replacement of the track, I'll be using the Harken high profile with the slot for the screws. That means I shouldn't have to fill and re-drill a lot of holes in the seahood. I haven't seen any good pics on the website of whether to use a plate under the track to spread the load across the seahood and at the ends. I suppose the folks at Fisheries can advise me, but I wonder what others have done on the E38, especially the Harken? The channel in the attached photo is doing that job, but I don't want to go back on with something that traps garbage the way that does.

The RT tool works great, though.
 

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dwigle

Member III
I used the big boat high track for mine and kept the channel. I was hoping the track would conform to the curve of the channel, but no way. A local boatyard had the tool to bend Harken, so I made a cardboard template for them to follow and it worked out perfectly. They also cut it to the length of the original. Have never regretted the conversion as it works great, especially with Harken sheet blocks.

Doing it over, I might leave out the channel. If we don't keep the downwind line semi snug when traveling down, it sometimes binds when we try to tighten it. I don't know what part, if any the channel has in that.

Don Wigle
Wiggle Room
E 38 #8
Pt. Richmond, CA
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Hi Don,

Thanks for the input. Good idea to go go a boatyard to get the track bent. Fisheries was sort of vague on how I'd get that done. I think I'll call a couple yards tomorrow and ask them about whether they recommend something under the track. The track has to span the 8 or 9 inches on the port side. Need to order the track also. If I had a bandsaw I might try to saw the vertical pieces off the channel and just use the flat bottom. The yard might be able to do that.

I was comparing prices of buying the Harken "traveler kit" that contains the traveler car, the two end pieces and the hardware to attach it to the track. It looks like I can save more than a few bucks by getting the pieces separately. Need to do the math on that again. Besides that I don't want the cam cleats integral with the end pieces. I am also going to get the stand-up toggle so the traveler sheaves will stay upright rather than flop around.

Back to the boat tomorrow evening after work to try to get that last nut loosened.
 

Ericsean

Member III
Traveller

Craig,

I'm removing my sea hood to rebed, and thinking its the right time to upgrade my traveller as well. I think I saw some good pricing on Tollesen Marines web site for Harken stuff, but with the change over to the retained bearings, some of the distributors still seem confused. I asked a rep at Pyacht.com what pieces where in the Harken Big Boat Kit, and he never called me back. I never considered removing the channel, but it makes sense if that hi-track can take the load. It would be great to just seal the holes in the sea hood if the track could take the full span. Or mabe use flush barrel nuts on the bottom of the channel, or possibly aluminum rivet nuts installed on the channel bottom.

Kevin Padden
 

dwigle

Member III
Craig,
If the yard is unsure of what they're doing, I'd consider ordering it prebent from Harken. Swendsen's had a special tool made just for bending the track which they did by putting a little bend at even intervals, not just one long curve.

I think I bought the traveler kit and just removed the cam cleats from the track and mounted them to the cabin top so it would work easily with the dodger. The stand up toggle would be a nice addition I don't have.

If you happen to be coming to the Bay Area for strictly sail or anything, you're welcome to come by the boat and check it out.

Don Wigle
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Craig,

I'm removing my sea hood to rebed, and thinking its the right time to upgrade my traveller as well. I think I saw some good pricing on Tollesen Marines web site for Harken stuff, but with the change over to the retained bearings, some of the distributors still seem confused. I asked a rep at Pyacht.com what pieces where in the Harken Big Boat Kit, and he never called me back. I never considered removing the channel, but it makes sense if that hi-track can take the load. It would be great to just seal the holes in the sea hood if the track could take the full span. Or mabe use flush barrel nuts on the bottom of the channel, or possibly aluminum rivet nuts installed on the channel bottom.

Kevin Padden


Hi Kevin,

When I get to looking over the weekend at the parts I need to get I'll post what I find/understand. I don't know if the track can take the load by itself, but I'm led to believe that it can. I need to check that out.

The high profile track, with the slot for the screws means you can use the existing holes in the sea hood. I'm wondering how to tighten them since the same problem exists going on as coming off, and now the head is hidden, too. Maybe the slot is too small to let the head turn? [Yes, the slot is designed to hold a 5/16" hex bolt and not let the head turn.]

Craig
 
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Craig,
If the yard is unsure of what they're doing, I'd consider ordering it prebent from Harken. Swendsen's had a special tool made just for bending the track which they did by putting a little bend at even intervals, not just one long curve.

I think I bought the traveler kit and just removed the cam cleats from the track and mounted them to the cabin top so it would work easily with the dodger. The stand up toggle would be a nice addition I don't have.

If you happen to be coming to the Bay Area for strictly sail or anything, you're welcome to come by the boat and check it out.

Don Wigle

Hi Don,

I wasn't planning to come down this year, but thanks the offer. And thanks for the tip on bending the track. There are a couple yards and a yacht outfitter I work with. I'll consult with them about bending and the need for a pad underneath the track. I got the track and channel off the boat tonight so I could order pre-bent, too.

I finally gave up on clever and persistent and drilled the last three screw heads off tonight. Check out the spring back on the track. It almost hit me in the face when the head let go. The channel was much better behaved and it was relatively easy to unwind the 10 remaining screws.
 

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Ericsean

Member III
Traveller track memory

Craig
Thanks for the heads up on that track rebound. I actually removed the whole sea hood to rebed. I then separated the channel and track fom the hood, but the bolts where still thru both the track and channel. As I was taping out the screws and thinking you were crazy, the track popped off. Surprised me even though I was expecting it.

I was looking at the Mauripro website,looking for travllers, and it looks like the new Lewmar stuff is reasonable pricewise. I hate to be the guinea pig, but those Harken prices are scary.

Also pretty sure I'm going to use a high beam track to span the sea hood. It seems like my hood was depressed below the deck, causing some puddling. I'll seal the holes is the hood, and shim the traveller to be just above it.Someof the screw holes in the deck had sometearout effect, as though the hood was trying to pull up, whcih could be attributed to mainsheet load pulling up.

I definelty had leaking under the hood, everything was damp and dirty under there.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I'm expecting a mess under the sea hood, too. I have kept the drain holes opened up; usually twice a year I'd go around and ream all of them with a thin screwdriver. Yesterday I got the last traveler screw out of the sea hood and backed out all the mounting screws a few turns, then put them back for now. The Harken track should be secured about every 10 inches, if there is support available, based on what Harken supplies with the track (10 slugs for 8 feet). It can span 45 inches unsupported, if I'm reading the table correctly, but that must require a beef-up at the edges of the spanned area to carry the max load. I'm going to re-use all but the hardest to get to holes in the hood.

I have to make a temporary companionway hatch because after the sea hood is off I'm also taking the hatch off to put new acrylic in it. I don't like the sliding frame with the reinforcing bars and I am tempted to get a 1/2" thick piece of acrylic sheet and make the hatch out of that. I'd have to machine the edges where it slides, maybe put a teflon or other plastic frame around the edges, and find a way to put stops on the backside (and a fitting for the lock) -- all without drilling any holes.

Not sure acrylic is up to the task, but that seems easier than scraping the frame and then sealing in a new piece. That's all based on past experience with both overhead hatches (it's time to do the big one again) and being halfway through the re-bed of the seven opening ports.
 

bigd14

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Craig

I was looking at the Mauripro website,looking for travllers, and it looks like the new Lewmar stuff is reasonable pricewise. I hate to be the guinea pig, but those Harken prices are scary.


What about a Garhauer traveller? I haven't actually used mine yet, but its very robust! They can custom bend it as needed as well as correct hole spacing. http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=34

IMG_20100821_133426.jpg
 

Ericsean

Member III
Drain Holes?

I did not know there were supposed to be drain holes on the sea hood, unless you are referring to the aft end on either side of the sliding hatch. I don't see any thing like that on my hood.

By the way, I was thinking of rplacing those cap screws with Pan head screws, after seeing all the rust stains under each one of those caps. How are you supposed to waterproof those things?
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I did not know there were supposed to be drain holes on the sea hood, unless you are referring to the aft end on either side of the sliding hatch. I don't see any thing like that on my hood.

By the way, I was thinking of rplacing those cap screws with Pan head screws, after seeing all the rust stains under each one of those caps. How are you supposed to waterproof those things?

Yes(!) there are drain holes along each side of my sea hood (I have hull #20), about every 5th or 6th screw. I don't have a picture to post, but they are NOT part of the mold. I see evidence that they were drilled after the seahood was in place. The plywood water catchers at the forward end have drains also at each end. Those have rotted out (I've done no maintenance on them in the 7 years I've had the boat) and I will either glass them closed or put a cup holder in there that won't rot.

I will look for a pic to post later, or take one this weekend.

The most aft 6 screws on each side were machine screws with captured nuts of some kind, probably to increase the strength where the traveler crosses over. The rest are wood screws. I will replace all the hardware with either Phillips or hex drive stainless. My screws were in very good shape. I did twist the head of one of the machine screws off, so I have an extraction to do once the hood is off (this weekend).

I selected the 4:1 Remote Cleat configuration. Yesterday I ordered the Harken hi-load traveler car w/standup toggle and 4:1 blocks, the 4:1 hi-load end controls w/deadend, the hi-beam variable fastener track (R32HB, 2.5 m) and the bend (13.07 ft radius). I called Harken and told them what I planned to do. They didn't disagree. The calculations on the traveler loads come out above those specified for the standard hardware at 25 knots wind, so I went HL with everything. They did say the 150 cam cleats for the remote configuration would be fine.

This weekend should be sort of fun as non-sailing weekends go.
 
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I have to make a temporary companionway hatch because after the sea hood is off I'm also taking the hatch off to put new acrylic in it. I don't like the sliding frame with the reinforcing bars and I am tempted to get a 1/2" thick piece of acrylic sheet and make the hatch out of that. I'd have to machine the edges where it slides, maybe put a teflon or other plastic frame around the edges, and find a way to put stops on the backside (and a fitting for the lock) -- all without drilling any holes.

Not sure acrylic is up to the task, but that seems easier than scraping the frame and then sealing in a new piece. That's all based on past experience with both overhead hatches (it's time to do the big one again) and being halfway through the re-bed of the seven opening ports.

Pardon me while I answer my own musings about my all-acrylic hatch idea. The short of it is that the slider/track arrangement won't permit it. I'll have to make major changes to the track attached to the boat and I'm not going there. So, I'll be replacing the acrylic pane in the frame anyway.
 

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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
What about a Garhauer traveller? I haven't actually used mine yet, but its very robust! They can custom bend it as needed as well as correct hole spacing.

On the Garhauer suggestion - I have seen their equipment and it looks like fine stuff. I have read the comments here on this forum about their inability to meet a delivery date promise. I suppose that is the deciding factor. I will get complaints from the Admiral about how long it takes me to do things that are under my control, let alone try to explain waiting on a company who is worse off than me and who also has our money.

Thanks.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Here are a couple pictures from under the seahood during removal last weekend. The wood was growing stuff.

The third shows the cleaned up openings after removal of the wood/fiberglass wells.

The last is one of the drain holes I mentioned previously. There are 3 on each side.
 

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tdtrimmer

Member II
Sea Hood

Thanks for sending the pictures under the sea hood. I always wondered what was under there. I have a small leak at the aft most point of the sliding hatch to starboard. From your pictures, it must be along the sliding hatch rails.
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Thanks for sending the pictures under the sea hood. I always wondered what was under there. I have a small leak at the aft most point of the sliding hatch to starboard. From your pictures, it must be along the sliding hatch rails.

No problem, Tom. Kind of a discovery process going on here. You have to figure that area has been covered for 30 years, fortunately drained by the holes in the perimeter of the hood. I think I figured out how to make a temporary hatch out of plywood and a couple lengths of aluminum channel. I'll need the hatch off for about a week, so the new sealer can cure without rain or bird crap getting on it.

The order from Harken arrived yesterday at Fisheries and I went and picked it up. Bend looks great, and the track itself is impressive when you can hold it in your hands. I'll post some pics later this weekend.

I have to repair the six holes in each of the end risers, from the original channel, and I can't re-use the holes because they won't line up with the line of holes in the seahood. So I'll have to be careful about the new ones. The old hole pattern is like the "6" face of a die. Those need to be filled and a couple layers of epoxy and glass cloth on the underside - maybe three. Then I'll drill the three new holes in a line, staggered, between the old.
 

Ericsean

Member III
Sea Hood & Traveller

Finally got everything back together, and the boat in the water. I ended up using Harken Hibeam track, and the old channel. I sealed the holes in the sea hood, so the traveller is independent, which I hope will result in less leakage due to the traveller uplift on the sea hood. I ended up with 3 bolts on Starboard, 2 w/nuts on the bottom of the channel, and one bolted inside the boat, between the bolts holding the channel. On Port, I had room to install 6 bolts. Since the prebend on my new track didn;t perfectly match the channel (it was overbent) , I had to use 2" long 5/16 full threaded bolts on the Harken slides, to line up w/ the holes in the channel. Then used C clamps to set the track and channel together, before nutting up the bolts. That way I was able to adjust the bolts to make sure they were not skewed, as the track came down onto the channel. After I had the nuts set, I trimmed the excess bolt length with a sawzall.

Went for a shake down sail yesterday, I didn't have any interference with the 4 part line and the old channel. I used the new standup toggle on the traveller car, which has the blocks attached to the toggle above the car, which provides pretty good clearance for the control lines.

Performance difference is night and day! I could not beleive how easily we adjusted the main in 12-15 knots! My new Doyle Kevlar cross cut main w/carbon tape reinforcing is amazing, but that's another story!
I used the stand up
 

footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
Post a picture, please

Hi Kevin,

How has it been working since the shakedown cruise? I wonder if you've had a chance to try it in a breeze yet. (never mind I see you've had it to 15 knots anyway)

My high beam track was over-bent also and was sent back to Harken for re-bending. It may have come in Friday, but no call from Fisheries. I need to call them today. Meanwhile, travel and family/social activities have kept me distracted from getting anything meaningful done for about 2 weeks. More travel is on the horizon.

I sent chord and height measurements that were wrong by about 4" of radius and would have resulted in too flat of a bend. The track bend I received differed by 8" of radius from my measurements. My new measurements were smack in the middle. My wrong measurements were due to me mis-reading the tape measure. Harken is re-bending for no charge which I believe is the correct decision since they missed by 8". I had asked Fisheries about who would bear the cost, given my poor instructions and he advised that Harken would let us know. Since they re-used the track, it cost less than starting over.

Below are two the pics of the fit problem that I sent along to illustrate the over-bend. I was especially concerned with the end of the track. The gaps at the inboard end of the pylons were 7/16 and 1/2 inch. Across the seahood the gap was 1/2 inch for most of the span. Too far to pull down with fasteners. The gaps at the end were especially troublesome. The track is so beefy I didn't think the pylons or the seahood should be asked to carry that pre-load.

Seahood Gap.jpgEnd Gap.jpg
 
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footrope

Contributing Partner
Blogs Author
I am also having trouble getting a twisted-off seahood screw out of the threaded aluminum plate embedded in the layup. Stainless and aluminum + 30 years of corrosive atmosphere. I have discovered that the aluminum plate might be a continuous bar for the length needed for the machine screws at the aft end of the hood. This will be a problem for the repair. I have made progress with drilling and dremeling but there isn't enough grip to use pliers. So I'm going to take a short section out and glass in a new backing plate for that screw. Should I use steel or aluminum backing material? That is the question. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
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