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e381 PHRF rating related question re Mars Stability Bulb keel modification.

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Hello All:

I have an '84 e381 shoal draft with a 660# Mars Stability Builb added to the keel. I frequently particate in local club races and have been fairly susesscful with a PHRF of 128 which I've referenced from other PHRF rated boats with the standard SD keel, (I do not have an official rating certificate, our club is fairly casual). I feel like I should appeal to the local PHRF committe for a rating adjustment to increase my rating since the displacement has increased by 660 lbs. I have casually mentioned it to a committe member and his opinion was that the rating should be lowered due to keel modification adding stiffness, obviously this would not help my case. I disagreed and did'nt persue it. How should the keel modification impact my rating, higher or lower and how do you determine by how much? Perhaps this is a question for Mars Keels. In any event I'm interested to know what y'all think. Thanks in advance.
 

Mark David

Member II
an answer that I got for a similar question a few years ago

PHRF is a performance handicap rating system based on the regional performance of similar boats, so an extra 600 pounds could be helpful in areas with higher average wind speeds and a hinderance in light wind venues

however, it seems to me that 'frequently participating and being fairly successful' indicates that your sailing performance might be faster than a 128 rating, never mind the keel weight
 
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Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
Well, base handicap for E38 is 114 with deep keel, 120 with shoal draft according to New England PHRF list. I'm guessing the bulb is supposed to increase performance ? My opinion is 128 is a generous number but there are other factors that determine your actual PHRF like size of head sail, furler, propeller, etc. The only way to know for sure is to apply for a PHRF, fill in all the blanks and see what it spits out. Around here it costs about $75 to get a cert.
 

Mark David

Member II
there are other factors that determine your actual PHRF like size of head sail, furler, propeller, etc.

those are all modifications that have a known affect on the performance of most all sailboats, so credits and deductions are universally given in 3 sec intervals to the base rating for the boat

what is interesting(?) is how the base rating for a boat can differ between the PHRF regions

Providence seems to have 'earned' a regional BHCP offset of +6 seconds on Lake Erie !?!
 
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Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
If the Mars keel is intended to increase performance, shouldn't a rating reflect that?

Are you arguing that it decreases performance? Just curious.
 

Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
so credits and deductions are universally given in 3 sec intervals to the base rating for the boat
Mostly, I get 6 for non folding prop, 3 for 135 lp(or less) headsail, 3 for furler, & net 3 for assym spin. I get why there is a difference between fresh water & salt water but other than that why there is a "regional" difference baffles me. I'm guessing the only reason is it's left up to local handicappers in those regions.
 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
All great comments thanks guys. Christian, as far as I know the Mars bulb is intended to increase stability so she should be "less tender". However the boat is 660 lbs heavier and as such would sit lower on her lines so would 'nt that negitively impact boat speed? As fas as the other factors that impact ratings I have a folding prop and usually sail with a 135% and have a Schaffer furler.

So any suggestions on how to make a case to the local committe about the keel modification?
 

Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
Mars bulb is intended to increase stability
It also reduces heeling which definitely can increase boat speed so does that offset the weight factor ? 120 base PHRF +3 for 135, and +3 for furler =126. So 128 is real close by crude computations. and New England PHRF rating. You should look for your regional PHRF fleet and look through the database to see if there is a local rating for a E38. that may give you a better(realistic) starting point for your discussion.
 

Saverio

Member III
Good morning, in Italy, any modification to the hull, even small things, must be reported to the Nautical Register, if you are caught by the Coast Guard, the boat will be seized and a fine of €8,000 will be triggered. Otherwise, to get in order, the Naval Expert is called, he takes photographs and a technical report at a cost of €15,000. Sincerely. Xavier
 

Prairie Schooner

Jeff & Donna, E35-3 purchased 7/21
Good morning, in Italy, any modification to the hull, even small things, must be reported to the Nautical Register, if you are caught by the Coast Guard, the boat will be seized and a fine of €8,000 will be triggered. Otherwise, to get in order, the Naval Expert is called, he takes photographs and a technical report at a cost of €15,000. Sincerely. Xavier
That sounds like it costs less to disobey the law.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
All great comments thanks guys. Christian, as far as I know the Mars bulb is intended to increase stability so she should be "less tender". However the boat is 660 lbs heavier and as such would sit lower on her lines so would 'nt that negitively impact boat speed? As fas as the other factors that impact ratings I have a folding prop and usually sail with a 135% and have a Schaffer furler.

So any suggestions on how to make a case to the local committe about the keel modification?
I have no idea what would impress your local handicap folks, but can only comment that I have always understood that the Mars split-bulb method of shortening the draft is used to reduce the draft to access shallower waters and the added lead is attached to maintain the designed-in righting moment. i.e. the boat will not become stiffer (or less stiff). For racing there will be some slight reduction in pointing angle due to reducing the lateral plane a little bit.
Personally, if I had 10 or 12K to spare (ha!) I would do this to our boat to reduce the draft from 6' to 5'. We have enough shallow passages in our region to make this very attractive. IMHO, it's best to start out with a very high performance hull like an Ericson or an Olson, so that an incremental reduction in pointing will not be noticeable 99.7% of the time.
Opinions on sale at two cents, Holiday pricing today.... ! :)
 

Dave G.

1984 E30+ Ludington, MI
Looking at the ratings for Galveston Bay PHRF you should be able to get a bump. They seem to be more favorable than the NE base handicaps.

 

Neil Gallagher

1984 E381
Thanks for the input guys!

Dave I've not seen the Galveston PHRF site so thank you for the link. Given we sail 150 miles south of Galveston their rating should have some significance. I like the e381's listed at 154 and 160 for thier boats!

Loren, our boat is a standard shoal draft with the Mars Bulb added so it is 660 lbs heavier opposed to cutting off the bottom of the keel, spliting it and bolting it back on the reaming keel. This was done by a previous owner so I'm not sure what the cost was, 10-12K ouch!

Next regatta is Turkey Day (was rescheduled for Dec 17). I'm going to start the rating review process, it should surely help to get to 154 or so.

Thanks everyone!
 
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