Engine Replacement vs. Rebuild

[R F Pezzoli]

I have a 1987 E 35 Mark lll, with a Universal 25 (20 hp) with three point mounting. My Crankshaft appears to have seized during operation earlier this week. I am haveing the engine condition assessed by pros this week, and am researching options re: used or rebuilt diesel engines in the SF Bay area.

If you have any recent experience with new vs. rebuilding this type of engine I would appreciate your comments, thoughts or suggestions. Preliminary estimates to replace are in the $12k to $15K range, without including any packing gland, shaft or prop replacement.

Thanks, and happy sailing.

Bob Pezzoli
925 631 0545
pezzoli@comcast.net

 

[Loren Beach]

Are you in a position to do any of this work yourself? Labor... yours or someone elses($$) is a large part of the equation.
I note that a replacement Universal M25XPB on a crate complete with transmission and new panel will cost you, very roughly, about $7K.

I have observed two of my friends do their own diesel replacements, and feel that a patient and reasonably thoughtful owner could do likewise - even me.
I have helped pull an engine, but have not done a reinstall.

At $70/hour, yard labor sure does add up fast, though!

Plan B would be to pull out the engine and take it to a rebuilder. My uneducated guess is that you would still be out 2 to 3K, and you end up the same parts beyond the short block that got fixed.
My rule of thumb, and it's just me, is that anytime something: 1) complex, 2) old, and 3) a major mechanical part of the boat fails to the point of spending close to 50% of the cost of a new part, I buy the new part.
That way all the peripherals, and an engine has a lot of these, are also new... and all are under warranty.

Keep us informed on how you resolve this unpleasant problem.

Regards,
Loren
1988 Universal M25 XP with 1900 hours

 

[chaco]

Go Short Block

Your M25 is a 3-cylinder KUBOTA BobCat Engine. Several outfits offer rebuilt
Short Bocks....just reattach all your Marine parts. I went new Beta 902
because my original engine was the 4-cylinder M4-30, not in common use in
the industry. The cost was $8K. Having your engine rebuilt will not be cost
affective because the cost of parts. Will look up the Rebuilders for you :nerd:
The ReManufactured Short Blocks were $3K +/-

Happy Auxilliary

 

[JMS]

The Universal MX25 series is a marinised Kubota D-950 motor. It was used in Kubota’s B1750, B20TLB, B7200, B8200, F2000 & F2100 tractors and also by other manufacturers—as Dan pointed out—like Bobcat. Knowing the model of tractor is useful since parts are usually referenced by vehicle model not engine type. Anyway, the D-950 and MX25 is exactly the same piece except for the parts added or substituted (cooling/exhaust systems & transmission) to adapt it to marine usage.

There is a ton of info floating around on the web regarding Kubotas -> one good place to start is at the Catalina 34 Association website. They have done a good job of documenting and cross-referencing part numbers. Here is one link from the C34 site: Engine manuals. There are PDF’s of the D-950 workshop manual and Kubota part lists. Purchasing parts from a Kubota dealer can be much less expensive than buying the same “marine” part from Universal/Westerbeke. Tractor Smart seems to be a popular online place for ordering Kubota parts.

FWIW, there are several places on the ’net advertising remanufactured D-950’s, rebuilt using genuine Kubota parts, for $2799.

 

[chaco]

ReBuilt Kubota Engines

You will find Stocked ReManufactured Kubota Engines at
www.enginepowersource.com.
There is also a gob of Universal Info at www.atomicfourengineservice.ca

There are NO Silver Bullets when it comes to RePower
$10K later and 160 hrs of backbreaking work, I am enjoying a new engine The cost from the Yard was $18K to $20K installed.
I also payed a local mechanic $300 to tear down the engine and give me
a ReBuild Price....$6K ! That's when I decided to go new Beta

Let me know as I can be of further help...been there....done that :nerd:

Happy RePower

 

[R F Pezzoli]

Universal M25 Replacement

Thanks for all your input and ideas.

I am leaning toward a new Kubota or Beta, as I believe my engine is "toast". The engine is scheduled to be pulled this week, which will generate better data on its condition. Does the 4 point mounting format on the new engines create excessive structural adaptation? Also, I am considering moving up to a 25 hp engine if space and weight permit, any thoughts?

Bob Pezzoli

 

[Loren Beach]

My SWAG is that is that any Kubota-based three cylinder diesel, whether Universal or Beta, will fit about the same. As to hp, I have 23 in our aprox. 11K displacement boat, and would not want any less. If changing engines I would put in a 26 or 27, or 28...
Loren

 

[JMS]

We did a lot of research on diesel replacements for the Atomic 4. Had we not decided to rebuild the A4 the Beta Marina BD902 AKA the Beta 25 would have been our top choice.

 

[chaco]

Go Beta

Just installed the Beta 902. What a great piece of machinery !
The Kubota block is NEW efficient design and the tranny is smooth cone
clutch. My install matches the old Atomic 4 base. They also have models
to match your M25. The heat exchanger is also intrigal to the exhaust
manifold....not a seperate can like on the Universal.
After MUCH research my conclusion was that Universal is selling old clunky
technology and that Beta and Yanmar have engineered a modern marine
engine and transmission system. You can buy direct from Beta NC and save
the TAX. The Crew at Beta NC are super helpful and got added parts to
me in record time.

Happy RePower

 

[Maine Sail]

Well..

Alternator, voltage regulator, starter, injection pump, injectors, thermostat, heat exchanger, motor mounts, hoses, wiring harness, water pump, fuel pump, oil pan, fuel lines, transmission, thermostat, manifold etc. etc. etc.. All these items will still be 25+ years old, rusty, corroding and soon in need of replacement anyway even if you do a rebuild.

If you buy new ALL of the above mentioned items are brand spanking new ready for another 25 years and with a warranty for up to five years on some brands.

Re-builds are not as cheap as they used to be and new engines are a value when you compare what you get for the money!

 

[jreddington]

I just had the engine pulled on my '84 E-28 (M-15). Core of engine is sound. Full compression, no oil burning. But a number of issues including bad engine mounts, corroded coupling, unrepackable shaft seal, iffy starter, leaky coolant and seawater pumps, etc. added up to being better to pull the engine.

Also, added dripless shaft seal, new shaft and cutlass bearing. I knew the exhaust elbow was toast, but when out, yard recommended also replacing the exhaust manifold. I did all electrical and plumbing removal and reinstallation which forced me into finally getting the whole cooling system and its operation fixed clearly in my head. Also installed new lift muffler myself. But wasn't confident about the actual pulling and reinstallation so had the yard do it.

At $75/hr (-15% for a special they had running), job originally estimated at about $3,000. With add-ons as it progressed (man are exhaust manifolds expensive) the yard bill ran to $4,400 (plus at least $200-300 for muffler, hoses, etc. that I bought).

Even the original estimate (plus anticipating an overbudget of at least 20%) made me seriously consider going the extra bucks for a repower. I'm happy with the job and have what I believe is a solid core engine, but one that is still over 20 years old. Plus, I'd have been able to squeeze a few more hp out of a new engine and been able to cruise at 7+ knots under power. Of course some of these costs aren't directly engine related and would be incurred even with a new engine.

However, facing some serious internal engine problems, I think that would quickly push me over the edge to replacement instead of rebuild.

 

[Loren Beach]

Thanks for all your input and ideas.

I am leaning toward a new Kubota or Beta, as I believe my engine is "toast". The engine is scheduled to be pulled this week, which will generate better data on its condition. Does the 4 point mounting format on the new engines create excessive structural adaptation? Also, I am considering moving up to a 25 hp engine if space and weight permit, any thoughts?

Bob Pezzoli

Hi Bob, You are still actively checking in here... so how did the engine problem come out?
New engine? Rebuilt? Brand/make?
Any wisdom to pass along?
:nerd:
Thanks,
LB