Ericson 38 fuel supply in rough weather

[oceandreams89]

Hello everyone,

Last fall, the day after Thanksgiving, while completing a long, very cold, and very rough trip from our summer port of Mystic, Ct to our winter haulout up the CT river in Haddam, CT we experienced a fuel supply issue with our 1989 38-200, and I'm wondering if anyone has had similar experiences, and if I need to investigate this further.

We departed Mystic with about 1/2 tank of fuel (26 gallons or so) for a 6 hour trip at 1 gal per hour or less I figure. Plenty of fuel right....
Most of the trip was uneventful although very cold, and very windy with "fresh" NW winds, and rough short seas. We motorsailed west in Long Island sound towards the CT river entrance in Old Saybrook CT. As we turned north from the sound to enter the channel leading to the river we began to pitch a little more violently in the 4-6 ft seas as we entered more of a headwind / head sea condition.

As this began the engine started to loose power and then died. I went below and bled the system, and the engine re-started. I had to do this several times until we worked our way up wind enough that the waves grew smaller and the pitching motion reduced. As we entered calm water the engine ran normally and continued to do so for the next 2 hours up the river without incident.

I figured that as the pitching motion increased we exposed the fuel tank pickup in the less than 1/2 full fuel tank due to free surface effect, took some air, and killed the engine. The tank is fairly large in aream but shallow and I dont think there are internal baffles to prevent the free surface sloshing of fuel, but I'm not positive about that. That is the only reason that I can see for this problem since it ran great the remainder of the trip. I am planning on replacing the Racor and engine mounted filters this spring as normal before my trip back to Mystic. The fuel tank was out for repair 3 years ago and was totally cleaned then. I have been running with less fuel the last few years so that I am always using somewhat fresh fuel, it just means more trips to the fuel dock. Up until this day, I never had one problem with this engine in any conditions in the last 6 years, and we use this boat several times a week during the season.

Has anyone else encountered this problem or had a similar problem with their Universal 5432 / 38-200? It was certainly a trip to be remembered. It was about 30 degrees, blowing a steady 20-25 with unforecast gusts reaching, at the highest... 48 knots on our meter. Everything was wet and very cold, and later very icy. I just could not combine a day off with perfect weather to move the boat and it just got too late in the season, but never again to be sure......

Thanks for any insights anyone can offer on this engine fuel issue....(not on trip planning .

Todd

 

[u079721]

Ours was also a 1989 E38-300, with the 54 gallon fuel tank, but no we never experienced anything like that. On a couple of deliveries I was running under power upwind in 6 to 8 foot seas with probably 25 to 30 gallons in the tank with no problems, but I have to agree that getting air up the dip tube in the tank sounds reasonable. Any chance the dip tube was shortened on yours when the tank was serviced? Mine was between 1/2 and 1" from the bottom, which you can check by opening up the fuel gage cover to use as an inspection port.

The only other thing I can think of is that there might be a spot in the fuel system that opens up and lets air in the line under the stress of a big seaway, but that would be hard to find. Still, I would tighten up on every fitting on the fuels lines just in case.

 

[e38 owner]

We had that issue

About 18 years ago we had the same issue.
It turned out there were worms in the fuel
They were near the bottom and when the fuel got agitated in the very large seas it would clog the filter etc.

We had a company called fuel polishers filter the fuel etc.
It worked great

 

[Gary Peterson]

I would agree with E38 owner if you find no cracks or issues with your tank's stand pipe. One could have a "hair ball" in their tank and run for days and not have an issue - then all of a sudden..............
Is there any contamination in the primary filter housing?
If it stalled very quickly it could be a 'hair ball' and if it slowly died then it could have been air.
Just a thought.

 

[dwigle]

Check valve?

We had a stalling problem in rough weather. At first I thought it was fuel not being picked up. I added fuel and it went away for a while. Turned out there is a check ball in the fitting attached to our tank and sediment was plugging it, and stopping fuel flow. Coming back up the coast, I got so I could clean the check valve and restart in under five minutes.

Don Wigle
Wiggle Room
E38 #8

 

[Emerald]

I also got nailed with a sticking check valve. It was so small and in line, it initially looked like a union more than check valve. it was at the point I was dismantling the line trying to figure out where the blockage was that I realized this was not a coupler, but a check valve.

 

[Gary Peterson]

Check valve

Good point.
If you have a check valve at the tank outlet, you don't need it. Remove it. They are more trouble than they are worth.

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Racor 500 Series filter. Only way to go. The racors with the screw on canisters do not cut it. Run a 10 micron at the racor and a 2 micron on the engine. Get your fuel polished by a reputable company. Get refernces as a lot of these guys are snakes. I try not to let my fuel sit too long either. Keep rarely more than 1/3 of a tank and treat it with Bio Bor.

 

[rbonilla]

what was the condition of the fuel? old or new? did the filters catch anything?

Hello everyone,

Last fall, the day after Thanksgiving, while completing a long, very cold, and very rough trip from our summer port of Mystic, Ct to our winter haulout up the CT river in Haddam, CT we experienced a fuel supply issue with our 1989 38-200, and I'm wondering if anyone has had similar experiences, and if I need to investigate this further.

We departed Mystic with about 1/2 tank of fuel (26 gallons or so) for a 6 hour trip at 1 gal per hour or less I figure. Plenty of fuel right....
Most of the trip was uneventful although very cold, and very windy with "fresh" NW winds, and rough short seas. We motorsailed west in Long Island sound towards the CT river entrance in Old Saybrook CT. As we turned north from the sound to enter the channel leading to the river we began to pitch a little more violently in the 4-6 ft seas as we entered more of a headwind / head sea condition.

As this began the engine started to loose power and then died. I went below and bled the system, and the engine re-started. I had to do this several times until we worked our way up wind enough that the waves grew smaller and the pitching motion reduced. As we entered calm water the engine ran normally and continued to do so for the next 2 hours up the river without incident.

I figured that as the pitching motion increased we exposed the fuel tank pickup in the less than 1/2 full fuel tank due to free surface effect, took some air, and killed the engine. The tank is fairly large in aream but shallow and I dont think there are internal baffles to prevent the free surface sloshing of fuel, but I'm not positive about that. That is the only reason that I can see for this problem since it ran great the remainder of the trip. I am planning on replacing the Racor and engine mounted filters this spring as normal before my trip back to Mystic. The fuel tank was out for repair 3 years ago and was totally cleaned then. I have been running with less fuel the last few years so that I am always using somewhat fresh fuel, it just means more trips to the fuel dock. Up until this day, I never had one problem with this engine in any conditions in the last 6 years, and we use this boat several times a week during the season.

Has anyone else encountered this problem or had a similar problem with their Universal 5432 / 38-200? It was certainly a trip to be remembered. It was about 30 degrees, blowing a steady 20-25 with unforecast gusts reaching, at the highest... 48 knots on our meter. Everything was wet and very cold, and later very icy. I just could not combine a day off with perfect weather to move the boat and it just got too late in the season, but never again to be sure......

Thanks for any insights anyone can offer on this engine fuel issue....(not on trip planning .

Todd

 

[oceandreams89]

Fuel was not very old, perhaps 4 months or so for the majority of it. I did not change the filters yet. The tank was out and clean 3 years ago, no large amount of fuel sitting for any length of time. We are usually out of the water for only 4 months or so, amd I store minimum fuel. The wierd thing was that the problem went away as soon as I was out of rough seas and the engine ran perfectly. As soon as the boat hits the water in a few days I'll start looking in to some of the suggestions some of you have made concerning the supply lines etc.

Todd

 

[Seth]

Anything is possible

The mostly likely culprit is unporting of the fuel pick up-this is very common when motorsailing and being heeled over. Rarely will you see it if just motoring, but when heeled over it is quite common. As suggested earlier, check the pick up tube to be sure it is in the best spot and hope for the best.

One trick we have had success with is when motorsailing and heeled over, at the fist hiccup of power, dump the main and level the boat out-if you do it quick enough you will likely avoid the dreaded engine stall and bleeding process...

The other ideas are possible (filters, valves, etc.), but my money is on unporting as the cause.

Cheers,
S

 

[ted_reshetiloff]

Motorsailing when heeled over= very bad for motor. Oil starvation at the pickup, air intrusion in cooling intake leads to burning up impellers and possible overheating engine. Clean fuel tank, use 500 series racor, dont let fuel get stale. no need to keep 50 gallons onboard. 1/4 tank lasts me 1/2 a season on the 38. Much rather deal with condensation in the tank than stale fuel growing crap.

 

[rwthomas1]

Motorsailing when heeled over= very bad for motor. Oil starvation at the pickup, air intrusion in cooling intake leads to burning up impellers and possible overheating engine.

Well, yes, no and maybe.... Most engines can easily tolerate 10-15degrees of heel. It all depends on how deep the oil sump is and how much oil is in the engine. My old 5432 holds 10qts, IIRC, which is PLENTY for such a small engine. The oil pickup will be quite deeply submerged in almost any conditions. Regarding the raw water intake, generally, at least on my boat it is at almost the deepest point in the hull. Highly unlikely that this will be exposed with regularity in any weather. The point is that every boat and its engine installation is different and should be considered independently. I have watched the oil pressure gauge closely while motorsailing heeled over and there are no variations in pressure. Given my installation, the engine characteristics and what I have observed, there is no problem operating at 10-15degrees. RT

 

[oceandreams89]

Well....3/4 tank of new fuel, new fuel filters, pulled the pickup tube to check clean, checked fuel return line and cleaned its port, fuel tank vent etc. New oil and filter. It should be a happy engine now....and a new Autostream feathering prop.

Making the trip down the river today. I think the heel angle / sea state was the problem. We were heeled to port about 10-15 degrees last year, and the pickup is on the starboard side of the fuel tank. That had to be it, but we should see. Much different conditions today though. Sunny, light winds and warm.....big difference.

T