Evaluating potential purchases

[K2MSmith]

Hello All,

I am pretty new to buying a used sailboat. I have been looking at examples from 80's (so far E32's and 38;s). I do plan to have the boat surveyed once I find one that might be the right one.

Many of the boats seem pretty rough (at all price ranges). For example, how do I evaluate rust/corrosion on stainless steel ? Is red rust on stainless easy to polish off ? What about corrosion on the helm tower (lower portion ?) - that looked pretty bad to me Another thing I see is just a lot of staining/dirt on the decks. I am thinking that some of this can be polished off but it is hard for me to tell.

I don't want to miss on an opportunity to buy a boat that may have "good bones" but needs some cosmetic work. On the other hand, if I boat is neglected for a while, I start worrying about other stuff. I want a good base to start with.

Can someone point me to any good books maybe on the topic ?

Saw this one on amazon which seems to be highly recommend:

Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual: Including Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair, Sailboat Refinishing, Sailbo: Casey, Don: 9780071462846: Amazon.com: Books

Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual: Including Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair, Sailboat Refinishing, Sailbo [Casey, Don] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual...

www.amazon.com

 

[Loren Beach]

If you are shopping boats moored / operated in salt water, you will find "staining" on the exterior stanchions, pulpits, and most any other SS part. Remember that "Stainless" Steel, only means (hopefully) that it will not easily rust.
There are chemicals that will remove the staining and you can polish it out yourself. After we spent about 6 weeks total in salt water, our normally-shiny ss stuff was showing staining. A year later after washings with fresh water, It looks shiny again.
Not sure what you mean by a "helm tower" but if you refer to the aluminum post where the steering wheel is mounted, that's often more serious. The coatings on those parts can last for decades... as long as no moisture gets under any of the surface. If ignored, the aluminum can corrode away and a hole can appear. It's fixable but better to keep scratches always filled in.

Dirt on decks.... a nuisance, but cleanable with a bristle brush and soap, and patience. Where I moor, under the glide path for PDX (reference- opening scene of movie Easy Rider, but not as close!), we get all the usual atmospheric dirt & mold from our rainy winters, plus jet exhaust by-products.
It's good to look first at the underlying integrity of the design and built quality. At three decades and counting most of the original systems in any boat have been replaced at least once, and if deferred are now overdue for attention.

"Cosmetic" means different things to different sailors, too. Some folks are sanguine about learning to match and patch nicks in the gel coat. Replacing out-of-production hardware will often result in drilling new holes and glassing in the old holes.

If giving general advice, first shop at the top of the quality scale, then winnow down by condition and potential restoration needs. Key is to remember that it costs the same to refit a poor quality craft as a good one. Motors, spars, sails, blocks, lines.... generally the same $.

Once you start to home in on a certain displacement, you can start to evaluate how the layout and inherent compromises will suit you.
I mention "displacement" because the hole in the water tells you more about the size of a boat than just the length.
For instance, an Ericson 32-3, E-32-200, E-33RH, and an Olson 34 all have somewhat similar displacements. All will cruise in comfort and all are as fast or faster than most similar boats on the market.

Interiors, cockpits, and other details may steer you more toward one than another.
If shopping for more displacement, look at the E-34-2, E-36RH, E-35-3, the Ericson cruising 36, and any of the variations of the wonderful E-38. They are sail very very well, and "live well" but you need to see which layout seems best for your needs.

Feel free to toss back questions about specific models, whether mentioned here or not. Some of us have quite a bit of time sailing other makes and models, too.

 

[K2MSmith]

I've looked at the 32-200 and E38. With particular E38 I looked at, the condition was so bad, I had to look past with the goal in mind of just learning about the size/layout compared to the 32. I realized that E32 to E38 is still a broad range in terms of size/displacement, but those are the endpoints for me. I definitely don't think I would go larger or smaller. I do sail a 38 now that is of similar displacement to the Ericson 38 and I would say most of the time (especially for single handing), I don't need such a large boat. Also, I have to think about slip costs etc. I won't be keeping it at Newport Beach (where the boat is I sail right now), but still slips in Ventura are still not cheap.

What I meant by "helm tower". I was thinking the post that comes off the floor of the cockpit that the wheel is on. On the E38 I looked at the base looked terribly corroded. It looked like it was about to break off.

 

[Christian Williams]

Helm tower=pedestal. On a small percentage of boats the aluminum pedestal deteriorates radically. Theories abound, including galvanic action caused by the wiring of the compass light, or bad dock wiring, or some voodoo curse. The pedestal can be replaced or fixed, but not in 10 minutes.

E32-3 - Pedestal Rebuild

Photo guide to step-by-step disassembly of pedestal steering: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?14133-Yacht-Specialties-Pedestal-Disassembly-with-Photos This took longer than expected, often felt like the...

ericsonyachts.org

 

[K2MSmith]

Somehow I thought of the world "tower" to describe the pedestal. Not sure how came up with that .

On the E38 I looked at, the pedestal near the base was pretty heavily corroded (the white stuff), near the base. I would be afraid it would break holding on to the helm. If that boat was in good condition and that was all that was wrong, then maybe I wouldn't have passed on it. It was still worth the hour drive though to learn what the E38 looked like. Overall, I liked the layout of the boat, it didn't feel any smaller than the Oceanis 38.1 (although the cockpit is smaller but that's OK). It might even be a little too big for me.

 

[Christian Williams]

What? The E38 cockpit is not as big as the Oceanis 38.1?

Wait--you might have a point.

Yeah, there have been some design changes since the 1980s.....

 

[Geoff W.]

There's a good book called Inspecting the Aging Sailboat if you're a reader that will give you lots of things to look at.

If I were buying a boat again, knowing what I do now, I'd still have gotten mine. The biggest things I would look out for are significant structural issues:
- Soft or shoddy looking thru hulls
- Soft spots in the deck
- Any other significant fiberglass delamination or damage
- Significant standing rigging issues, including mast or boom damage
- Does the engine look well maintained or like it's been forgotten about?
- Bulkhead damage or rot

Stuff that looks bad, but isn't bad (just tedious) is stuff like:
- Aging or unkempt woodwork (though this may be a sign of water intrusion)
- Dirt, scum, slime, scuffs, anything that can be hosed off, polished, scrubbed, or brushed away
- Sails and cushions are ultimately temporary items. Unless the boat has been refit, both are probably past their prime.

At the end of the day it's been refreshing to learn that everything on the boat is just "stuff". Even the hull, even the fiberglass, even the nice woodwork, the electronics, the engine, and so on. Everything CAN be replaced. You could rebuild an entire Ericson from the bottom up, if you really wanted - the question becomes about time and money. Do you want to buy a sailboat or a project (trick question)? Do you already know how to do some DIY stuff or are your first 3 attempts going to go wrong, and the final version will look unprofessional?

 

[K2MSmith]

What? The E38 cockpit is not as big as the Oceanis 38.1?

Wait--you might have a point.

Yeah, there have been some design changes since the 1980s.....

View attachment 32779

View attachment 32781View attachment 32782

Yes that’s it and a nice comparison view . The interior space on the E38 didn’t actually “feel” as small in comparison to what appears in this view - but as a club member , I’ve only been on this 38.1 for a few months . We had a hunter 40 which was retired from the fleet earlier .
Honestly having a big cockpit with dual helms has advantages, but there are big disadvantages. If you are not careful, it’s a lot of distance to get thrown back and forth . My toddler granddaughter will take advantage of the space if she is not harnessed / tethered in ( a good idea regardless) . I had the bow thruster fail on me ( which I later discovered was pilot error in my part ) on leaving the slip .I got pushed by the wind back into a very tight fairway with no maneuverability. I managed to get it out without the bow thruster (and not hitting. 1M+ yachts in the process) . but it was nerve wracking . Live and learn .

 

[K2MSmith]

There's a good book called Inspecting the Aging Sailboat if you're a reader that will give you lots of things to look at.

If I were buying a boat again, knowing what I do now, I'd still have gotten mine. The biggest things I would look out for are significant structural issues:
- Soft or shoddy looking thru hulls
- Soft spots in the deck
- Any other significant fiberglass delamination or damage
- Significant standing rigging issues, including mast or boom damage
- Does the engine look well maintained or like it's been forgotten about?
- Bulkhead damage or rot

Stuff that looks bad, but isn't bad (just tedious) is stuff like:
- Aging or unkempt woodwork (though this may be a sign of water intrusion)
- Dirt, scum, slime, scuffs, anything that can be hosed off, polished, scrubbed, or brushed away
- Sails and cushions are ultimately temporary items. Unless the boat has been refit, both are probably past their prime.

At the end of the day it's been refreshing to learn that everything on the boat is just "stuff". Even the hull, even the fiberglass, even the nice woodwork, the electronics, the engine, and so on. Everything CAN be replaced. You could rebuild an entire Ericson from the bottom up, if you really wanted - the question becomes about time and money. Do you want to buy a sailboat or a project (trick question)? Do you already know how to do some DIY stuff or are your first 3 attempts going to go wrong, and the final version will look unprofessional?

I saw a 32-200 in the second category, although I didn’t check the decks . A painted hull was a bit of a turnoff for me although I do like black / dark blue hulls . I’d have to investigate that a bit more. I know with fiberglass you can have color in the gelcoat, but it was painted ( and would need repainting)..I perused a few sites online - bottom paint cost not too bad, but if you want to professionally repaint the entire hull -that gets more expensive -but if the cost is negotiated low enough ...

 

[Sean Engle]

Hello All,

I am pretty new to buying a used sailboat. I have been looking at examples from 80's (so far E32's and 38;s). I do plan to have the boat surveyed once I find one that might be the right one.

Many of the boats seem pretty rough (at all price ranges). For example, how do I evaluate rust/corrosion on stainless steel ? Is red rust on stainless easy to polish off ? What about corrosion on the helm tower (lower portion ?) - that looked pretty bad to me Another thing I see is just a lot of staining/dirt on the decks. I am thinking that some of this can be polished off but it is hard for me to tell.

I don't want to miss on an opportunity to buy a boat that may have "good bones" but needs some cosmetic work. On the other hand, if I boat is neglected for a while, I start worrying about other stuff. I want a good base to start with.

Can someone point me to any good books maybe on the topic ?

Saw this one on amazon which seems to be highly recommend:

Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual: Including Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair, Sailboat Refinishing, Sailbo: Casey, Don: 9780071462846: Amazon.com: Books

Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual: Including Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair, Sailboat Refinishing, Sailbo [Casey, Don] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Don Casey's Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual...

www.amazon.com

If you're new to old sailboats, Casey's series are an excellent introduction to the process and give you lots of think about without over burdening you with too many details that will confuse you. Once you're comfortable and have the boat, there are lots of other references I and others can recommend which are 10x more detailed.

//sse

 

[Sean Engle]

...I've looked at the 32-200 and E38.

You might look at the E35-3 also. The boat is small enough for a single person to man-handle at the dock, yet large enough to entertain on, sails well, etc -- has a separate shower for wet jackets, and a really nice vee berth that you can sit up in, etc.

 

[K2MSmith]

If you're new to old sailboats, Casey's series are an excellent introduction to the process and give you lots of think about without over burdening you with too many details that will confuse you. Once you're comfortable and have the boat, there are lots of other references I and others can recommend which are 10x more detailed.

//sse

Thanks Sean, I actually just ordered that book today (and it will arrive tomorrow !). Although I'm a self-professed techie, I don't mind simple at this stage..

 

[Loren Beach]

A friend of mine professionally rebuilds and paints boats. While not inexpensive, done right with several clear coats his finish work can easily last 20 years. I see the proof every day in my marina. Considering that cost, tho, you want to be at the end of the life of the original gel coat, because most of the time once you paint it you cannot return to a gel coat surface.

Looking at boats on my weekly walk thru our 150 boat moorage, it's the decks that really need painting, to recover when 40 years of UV attack have worn away the original surface and exposed the inner layer of resin. Ericson's are not as susceptible as the cheaper boats, but pretty much all of them will need paint at some point.

And that's labor-intensive -- stripping all of the hardware off the deck, over-drill-&-epoxy the hole and re-drill.... hundreds of holes...
I have helped a little bit with this on another boat and have "potted" some holes in our deck. It's a lot of labor time- by an owner or by paid help.
Done right, you can return your boat to new looks... and it's really astounding to see.

Most well maintained 80's Ericson's should look fine with minimal touchup for another decade, IMHO.

**Tuesday opinion sale, senior pricing, discount taken at register**

 

[Sean Engle]

Thanks Sean, I actually just ordered that book today (and it will arrive tomorrow !). Although I'm a self-professed techie, I don't mind simple at this stage..

Yeah, and I'm sure you saw all his other titles also... They all provide a nice, 30,000 ft view of the issues...

 

[K2MSmith]

A friend of mine professionally rebuilds and paints boats. While not inexpensive, done right with several clear coats his finish work can easily last 20 years. I see the proof every day in my marina. Considering that cost, tho, you want to be at the end of the life of the original gel coat, because most of the time once you paint it you cannot return to a gel coat surface.

Looking at boats on my weekly walk thru our 150 boat moorage, it's the decks that really need painting, to recover when 40 years of UV attack have worn away the original surface and exposed the inner layer of resin. Ericson's are not as susceptible as the cheaper boats, but pretty much all of them will need paint at some point.

And that's labor-intensive -- stripping all of the hardware off the deck, over-drill-&-epoxy the hole and re-drill.... hundreds of holes...
I have helped a little bit with this on another boat and have "potted" some holes in our deck. It's a lot of labor time- by an owner or by paid help.
Done right, you can return your boat to new looks... and it's really astounding to see.

Most well maintained 80's Ericson's should look fine with minimal touchup for another decade, IMHO.

**Tuesday opinion sale, senior pricing, discount taken at register**

According to the broker, this was paint (dark) over the original white gelcoat hull - above the waterline to the deck. I do like the classic look of that from an aesthetic perspective, but if it is faded, it looks much worse than if not painted at all. I don't know if it can be removed or would have to be painted over with same color, but if I remain interested in the boat, I'll have to investigate this and cost. The deck was dirty but it actually looked pretty good. (all the lines/sheets needed replacing but to my eye the rigging looked good - no corrosion - wires looked bright).

 

[Loren Beach]

FWIW, some shades of dark blue do look very very nice on classics like the Ericson's. Everything depends on the number of "feet". (When I have approached a painter about a someday paint job, they point out that price varies hugely by "feet".... do I want it to look great at 10 feet, 5 feet, or closeup..... the closer the view the more the price. )