Fuel Polishing ASAP

[MarkA]

Jeff, I hate the idea of relying on filters to save your motor when your tank is known to be filthy. Get that crud outta there!

I don't know what kind of access you have to your tank, but mine is easy. It's a flat-topped aluminum tank that runs the full length of my starboard settee, so I have complete access to the top. There are two internal baffles running across it's width (according to my taps with the handle of a screw driver). I will cut three 5" holes using a hole saw and WD40 as lube. The holes will be over the deepest portions of the tank (it's contoured to the hull shape); one in each baffled chamber. The hole saw will cost $20, and I'll spend more time in the checkout line than it will take to cut the holes and de-burr the edges. You may only need one access hole.

Before I cut, I will use a hand pump and empty the tank into a jerry jug and dispose of it at the fuel dock. The vent fitting in the tank is large enough for me to insert the pump tube.

Then I will scrub. If necessary, I'll remove the tank and use a high pressure water sprayer--but I don't think that will be necessary.

To cover the holes, I am having covers and backing plates made (see attachment). I will use Buna-N for gasket material, and 5/16" bolts to fasten them. SeaBuilt makes similar covers, which they demonstrate here: http://www.seabuilt.com/demo.php

This seems much easier than stocking up on filters and worrying about crud getting into the motor.

 

[Tom Plummer]

Mark,

You might want to check the fittings where the fuel pickup tube exits the tank. Since our boats could be had with a gas or diesel engine on some boats Ericson installed a spring loaded ball check valve at that location. Its purpose was to keep the fuel on the gas models from being siphoned out of the the tank, Early in my dirty tank tribulations, which sound remarkably like yours, my fuel line became clogged just like yours and while taking it apart to clean it I discovered the ball check valve. That check valve makes a fine crud collector and on a diesel serves no purpose so if you have one remove it.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Well I have talked to the only two official Yanmar Sales and Service shop mechanic's in the Port of LA area and although there advice varied a little it was pretty much the same. Unless I want to got to the expense of having the Long Beach Fuel Dock to polish the tank (between $150. & $200 for my little 15 gal), or cut out and replace the 37 year old steel tank and god knows what that will run me, not to mention missing all that time on the water.

Going to stick with keeping the tank topped off and going to 30 micron filters for the time being, and adding a minimum amount of biocide and enzyme treatments. Also try to stay out of the main channel and inner harbors and keep my vessel assist paid up.

I sail Econo.

 

[MarkA]

Thanks Tom. I'll check that out, although my tank was custom fabricated for a previous owner and probably does not have the ball.

The damned thing holds enough fuel to motor to the moon and back--which is part of the problem. Since 2006 when I bought the boat, I have added fuel twice: When I bought the boat, I topped off the tank, 19 gallons. This year I topped it again, adding 6.5 gallons. I was told it's a 40 gallon tank, and I'm about to see if that's true. I would not be surprised if some of my fuel has been in there for more than 10 years.

I need a system for monitoring fuel consumption, because I'm tired of guessing about my tank levels.

 

[Tom Plummer]

Rod,

The electric pump was added as a booster for the Yanmar lift pump when that didn't solve my fuel starvation problem I added the polishing provisions. The regional Yanmar distributor had recommended I install a booster pump one because the OEM lift pumps for Yanmar 3GM30's are only rated for a max lift of 3 to 5 inches. Which meant that without a booster pump use ofthe bottom half of the tanks fuel was iffy this is due to the relative location of the tank to the OEM lift pump.

I have used the polishing function of the system underway when under sail but have never tried it with the engine running. It should work but you might need to throttle V2 to insure adequate fuel flow to the engine.

 

[Tom Plummer]

Mark,

Two years after I put the system in I added a tee and between P3 and V1 and installed a defueling line to the tee with an additional valve V3. I have a diesel pickup so in the spring I pump the fuel out into jerry cans and put into my truck.

Because my Yanmar is old enough for low sulfur fuel to be a problem, loss of lubricity in the injection pump, I use B10 bio-fuel in it that I purchase from a land dealer. So there is no issue with road tax and I find that buying the fuel on shore is cheaper the the fuel as the marina.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Okay, so slap me silly. I just got off the phone with my regular mechanic to order another secondary filter and a couple oil filters for my Yanmar 1GM10, and he was not happy to hear I was getting advice from the other Guy.

When I told him about the white gunk / black gunk story, he said if there is white gunk in your fuel somebody's jerking off in their tank. LOL. :0

He also said going to 30 microns is crazy, because you would just have to change the secondary filter more often. He said the rule of thumb for him had always been 10 microns on the primary (racor) and that the secondary on the Yanmar is 2 microns.

At this point I am just going to keep an eye on the clear plastic cup, and change to a 10 when it starts to show more than I'm comfortable with.

Ask 10 mechanic's, get 10 answers. :headb:

Thanks for all the great suggestions and opinions.

All I know it the engine is running fine for the moment.

I'm shutting up now and going sailing.

 

[Tom Plummer]

I agree with your mechanic. When I did the cleaning of my tank I started with 30 microns because I was bypassing the secondary filter, which on my engine is located between the OEM lift pump and the injection pump, and wanted high flow to stir things up. Then I went down to a 10 micron filter out smaller particles then I went to the 2 micron to finish the cleaning process. After I had finished the cleaning process I went back to the 10 micron filter. My reason for using a racor 2 micron filter to flush with as opposed to using the engine filter is three fold: 1. The filter on my Yanmar is a pain in the butt to change. 2. The Yanmar filters are expensive relative to their size. 3. The Racor's have a much larger surface area which greatly increases the flow rate cutting way down on the time it took to do the job.

 

[tilwinter]

fuelschool.blogspot

"within the consuming public there is a misunderstanding that diesel in particular is a homogenous product that has the same quality and characteristics everywhere. This is not the case; diesel fuels are refined from crude oils of different origins with different characteristics, different compositions, and different qualities. This refining takes place in refineries of different design and widely different capabilities, run by companies and people with vastly different competencies, that are trying to produce products to meet an ever changing customer, financial, and regulatory environment.

The result is the fuel you get can vary significantly from place to place and even from day to day in the same place."

 

[simdim]

Jeff, I hate the idea of relying on filters to save your motor when your tank is known to be filthy. Get that crud outta there!

I don't know what kind of access you have to your tank, but mine is easy. It's a flat-topped aluminum tank that runs the full length of my starboard settee, so I have complete access to the top. There are two internal baffles running across it's width (according to my taps with the handle of a screw driver). I will cut three 5" holes using a hole saw and WD40 as lube. The holes will be over the deepest portions of the tank (it's contoured to the hull shape); one in each baffled chamber. The hole saw will cost $20, and I'll spend more time in the checkout line than it will take to cut the holes and de-burr the edges. You may only need one access hole.

Before I cut, I will use a hand pump and empty the tank into a jerry jug and dispose of it at the fuel dock. The vent fitting in the tank is large enough for me to insert the pump tube.

Then I will scrub. If necessary, I'll remove the tank and use a high pressure water sprayer--but I don't think that will be necessary.

To cover the holes, I am having covers and backing plates made (see attachment). I will use Buna-N for gasket material, and 5/16" bolts to fasten them. SeaBuilt makes similar covers, which they demonstrate here: http://www.seabuilt.com/demo.php

This seems much easier than stocking up on filters and worrying about crud getting into the motor.

I am actually considering installing a clear inspection plate over the deepest part of my aluminum tank on e29 - this one is prime contender http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=R-DP60-W-C (Beckson 6"Clear Inspection Plate) unless some one will tell me that it is not a good choice.

Cheers,

 

[Loren Beach]

I am actually considering installing a clear inspection plate over the deepest part of my aluminum tank on e29 - this one is prime contender http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=R-DP60-W-C (Beckson 6"Clear Inspection Plate) unless some one will tell me that it is not a good choice.

I seem to recall that those may not recommended for fuel. Check with Beckson.

I have two of these on my water tank and they are very sensitive to any flexing of the tank top so our tank had to have a reinforcing ring welded in just for each plate assembly.

LB

 

[Stu Jackson]

I need a system for monitoring fuel consumption, because I'm tired of guessing about my tank levels.

I understand your concern with your larger fuel tank. But the "system" is very simple: start a spreadsheet and keep careful records. We have a 23 gallon tank. I've calculated, over the past 13 years, that we use less than 1/2 gallon an hour in our M25. Keep track of your engine hours and fuel refills.

Go motoring for 20 hours and refill with 10 gallons. Has worked for me for all these years since I refuse to replace my fuel gauge sender in my tank only to have to do it all over again a few years later.

Here's a pdf of the spreadsheet i made: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3841.0.html

Doesn't really matter how big your tank is, the same concept applies.

 

[Greg Ross]

Pressurizing Fuel Tanks, or water tanks for that matter

Jeff,
In your piece about your regular mechanic using a compressor to clear whatever blockage you'd encountered;
Did he incorporate a pressure gage to determine what back pressure the tank was being subjected to.
I've done 30 some years in marine/ heavy industry and know enough about fabricating metal products to be considered dangerous!
Flat sheet fabricated tanks (steel or aluminum) are going to have many linear feet of corner welds to make it a container. Because of the enormous pressures applied to a flat surface when pneumatic testing, flat wall tanks are shop tested as I recall, to no more then 2 to maybe 3 PSI and then bubble/ snoop tested.
Those corner welds are never considered 100% effecient, in other words by design they're derated due to inherent defects in the welding process. The only way a designer would consider a weld like that to be 100% effecient is if it was double welded, ie: welded from both sides. Very difficult when you have at best a 5" inspection hole.
The buckling that an over pressurized tank experiences is over stressing those welds with forces they are not expected to experience. Round tanks and pressure vessels are designed to entirely different expectations for both pressure and vaccuum conditions. Wouldn't be surprised but that you've reduced the life expectancy of that fuel tank.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

Jeff,
In your piece about your regular mechanic using a compressor to clear whatever blockage you'd encountered;
Did he incorporate a pressure gage to determine what back pressure the tank was being subjected to.
I've done 30 some years in marine/ heavy industry and know enough about fabricating metal products to be considered dangerous!
Flat sheet fabricated tanks (steel or aluminum) are going to have many linear feet of corner welds to make it a container. Because of the enormous pressures applied to a flat surface when pneumatic testing, flat wall tanks are shop tested as I recall, to no more then 2 to maybe 3 PSI and then bubble/ snoop tested.
Those corner welds are never considered 100% effecient, in other words by design they're derated due to inherent defects in the welding process. The only way a designer would consider a weld like that to be 100% effecient is if it was double welded, ie: welded from both sides. Very difficult when you have at best a 5" inspection hole.
The buckling that an over pressurized tank experiences is over stressing those welds with forces they are not expected to experience. Round tanks and pressure vessels are designed to entirely different expectations for both pressure and vaccuum conditions. Wouldn't be surprised but that you've reduced the life expectancy of that fuel tank.

Well the life expectancy of my tank is probably nearing the end anyway. We took the cap off the deck fill first so the added pressure would have some where to go. My mechanic just gave it a couple of 1/2 second bursts and then we heard the bubbles. That was a year and a half ago. Actually now when I change my primary (racor) filter I actually disconnect the line going to the filter from the tank and blow on the hose to see if I hear bubbles. That way I know the line is clear. Then I actually suck on the hose to start a syphon and watch what pours in to a plastic bowl.

I replaced the old 1/8" copper tubing shown in this photo (a year & a half ago) with 3/8" CG rated fuel line hose.

Call me crazy, but that's the way I roll.

I don't think my gunk in the tank problem is nearly as bad as Mark's right now btw.

 

[Greg Ross]

Blowing back on the fuel line

Jeff,
Sorry,
When I read your piece the first time I had mis-understood. I read into it that your mechanic had pressurized the tank to dislodge whatever was blocking the pick-up.
I'd noticed one time my cooling water flow was getting less and less and did a similar thing to dislodge clams growing in my cooling water intake/ thruhull. A couple of shots from the compressor was very effective. Burped the baby and she worked much better.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

It's all good Greg,

I put the EY.o Information Exchange through a lot of this tank stuff about a year and a half ago when the tank clogged before in a very busy seaway. At least last weekend I was able to get back to my slip un assisted because I just know the sound of my little engine when it starts to get starved for fuel.

I saw my mechanic yesterday and I am feeling much more relaxed about my situation and know a lot more about what the problems are. I thought it might be a good idea to show a photo of the old beast (tank). It would be great if other E-27 owners could hang a camera down there and take some shots of their tanks so we could compare notes.

That's what this sites all about, right?

Beam Winds All,

Going for a day sail this Saturday and I plan on running the engine for a while as well too. Going to look for some of those "Bull Bayliner" wakes to plow through and really get that gunk sloshing around so I can enjoy seeing what I find at my next filter change.

 

[MarkA]

Jeff, thanks for the tank pics. You could easily cut one or two holes on the side with a hole saw, and cover them up for less than a few weeks worth of filters. I see the vertical seam where your baffle is.

Here's my tank; I'll be cutting holes this weekend.

 

[simdim]

Mark,
What are you planning to use as covers?

Cheers,

 

[MarkA]

These covers and backing plates, with internal and external gaskets cut from Buna-N.

 

[MarkA]

Update

So, I paid $32.52 for a 12" x 36" sheet of 3/32" Buna-N, and cut six gaskets using scissors and a hole punch. I paid $20.88 for 24 stainless bolts, washers, and nuts (5/16" x 1.5)." The aluminum fabrication was free. That comes to $17.80 each for three inspection plates.

In contrast, SeaBuilt sells identical systems for $176.00 each.

Also, one guy quoted me $200 to cut one 4" hole in the tank, make one cover (without backing plate!) and one gasket.

Tomorrow, I'm cutting three 5" holes in my tank, and I'm gonna wipe it out by hand. That will save me from paying $350.00 to the fuel polisher dude.