Got a real problem with my '85 E35-3 Rudder....

[1911tex]

Apparently the surveyor missed it. The PO who owned the boat for a decade didn't admit it. Now that the boat is on the hard or the first time in 3-4 years, pressure washed in prep for a new bottom, it is now so obvious and there are 2 large 4-5" blisters on the port side of the rudder. (thank goodness only a couple very small ones on the hull itself).

I called Foss in California about the possibility of straitening the post. No dice, it will never be perfectly round and possible source of a leak. It seems the rudder must have hit a rock/cable or something that bent the post sternward, just enough that the rearmost upper corner lightly rubs against the hull. You can see a defining bruise on the fore bottom now that the crud is gone. Foss said water intrusion from the bruise may be problematic. So I am going to purchase a $1600 +shipping and installation cost, for new rudder from Foss, Cal. "!@#$%"

My first question is; Foss has a new design rudder for this boat, a picture is on their website; has anyone purchased the new design?...supposed to be more "efficient", according to Foss.

Second question: Looks like the post is 4-5' long...the marina has the machine to lift the boat high enough. What is the procedure to remove (drop) the old rudder and install the new one?

Sure appreciate your kind assistance on this problem! I sure would like to sail again, the lake is magnificent!

I am amazed that there is no evidence of a hit on the keel!

 

[Leslie Newman]

Boat was not out of the water for 3-4 years? A blister could have developed anytime and nothing the previous owner would have known about.
How long did the previous owner own the boat? Never know what has happened to a boat that old, and when it happened. A log could have been hit maybe.
Can you grind down the rudder a little so it does not rub? Couldn't you repair the blister? Plastic boats can be repaired. Always depends on how perfect you want things. I take it the rest of the boat is very solid and worth a new rudder. I had a friend that made his own rudder when his split. But he was not dealing with any bent post, so he used his existing hardware and laid up a new rudder.

I really like this guy's videos. Here he is rebuilding a foam core rudder from a 35' boat.

 

[1911tex]

Leslie: The PO just returned my call this morning....yes they did know about the rudder problem but did not relay the info to me prior?? They owned the boat for 10 years. Their previous owner admitted they hit a cable but did not know of the bent post or unaware of the rubbing...did not consider it problematic??? Wow!

Irregardless, the bent post, rubbing against the hull, open scar at the lower forward end of the rudder and serious rudder blisters made my decision to replace it. Bottom line, someday, not soon...if it becomes time to sell due to my age, I want the boat to be as it should and want a future owner to be confident of my care. The rest of this beautiful boat is in very good condition and I intend to maintain it as such.

I would like to know the procedure of removing the old rudder...so I can prepare the repair marina under my supervision. Is there a source or knowledge of replacement?

I did see this old post and sent it to Foss...:

Rudder and Foss Foam of CA

I am in deep doo do I recently purchased a new rudder for my Ericson 29 from Foss Foam of CA. I was disappointed in the fit. Despite assurances that they "had this" with over 30 years under their belt, I found a 1" gap at the leading edge and rubbing against the hull on the trailing edge. I...

ericsonyachts.org

Leslie, I appreciate your suggestion!

 

[JSM]

Second on what Leslie says. What shape is the rest of the rudder in ? Does the bent shaft affect the steering at all ? Check the rudder for water intrusion by tapping it with a hammer, anywhere you get a dead thud as opposed to a nice hollow ring is probably saturated with water. In most cases water enters the rudder at the shaft and can be drained by drilling a few small holes in the bottom of the rudder and one up higher to act as a vent. If the rudder is not deformed / delaminated you could sand down the area thats binding on the hull and repair the blister and hang on to your money.
Thirty years ago I remember freaking out when I discovered that the rudder on our first boat was water logged. We drained and patched it and the boat is still sailing today with the same rudder.

 

[Loren Beach]

Agree that foam coring and shell can be repaired. Totally.
The shaft and the internal steel matrix attached to it (sometimes called the "rakes") would be more of a challenge. Basic problem is how to straighten that shaft. A very mild - 1 or 2 degree - bend is often straightened with a press and be 99% as strong as new. My so-called knowledge is anecdotal and I am not an engineer, keep in mind.
Starting over with a new blade & shaft, OTOH, is more than even a 'restoration' and additionally gives you a chance to improve it at no extra cost.

Rudder profiles have evolved since the 80's, and even the elliptical rudder on my Olson has a replacement shape available that is better. You can find examples of this change in some pix of sisterships and also on Ericson 35-2 and E-32-2 models.

As for changing out the present rudder, that is a practical matter of either lifting the boat high enough or digging a hold under the rudder when boat is on jack stands. Modern yards, AFAIK, will do the rudder drop while boat is in slings. They dislike tying up the Travelift, and it helps if the owner has done a lot prep work where the shaft and quadrant are joined.

Many years ago, when we had our keel re-bedded, the yard inspected out rudder for evidence of water intrusion - found none - and certified their observations to me in writing.
(Not an everyday request, but a friend of mine had previously had them cut a small window in the side of his rudder for inspection at the request/demand of his insurance co. His rudder steel bits passed inspection. That was a pretty high quality offshore 38 footer, albeit not an Ericson.)

Edit: That's a great video, but I was amazed that in part 2 he did not insert the missing "cross bars" in the shaft. Almost any diameter of rod would be better than the zero it was originally built with.
Perhaps he was more concerned with potential liability should it break sometime in the future and he would be blamed for making any changes?

Edit #2: Great Thread on this subject: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/rudder-replacement.13548/#post-94347

 

[Leslie Newman]

Leslie: The PO just returned my call this morning....yes they did know about the rudder problem but did not relay the info to me prior?? They owned the boat for 10 years. Their previous owner admitted they hit a cable but did not know of the bent post or unaware of the rubbing...did not consider it problematic??? Wow!

Irregardless, the bent post, rubbing against the hull, open scar at the lower forward end of the rudder and serious rudder blisters made my decision to replace it. Bottom line, someday, not soon...if it becomes time to sell due to my age, I want the boat to be as it should and want a future owner to be confident of my care. The rest of this beautiful boat is in very good condition and I intend to maintain it as such.

I would like to know the procedure of removing the old rudder...so I can prepare the repair marina under my supervision. Is there a source or knowledge of replacement?

I did see this old post and sent it to Foss...:

Rudder and Foss Foam of CA

I am in deep doo do I recently purchased a new rudder for my Ericson 29 from Foss Foam of CA. I was disappointed in the fit. Despite assurances that they "had this" with over 30 years under their belt, I found a 1" gap at the leading edge and rubbing against the hull on the trailing edge. I...

ericsonyachts.org

Leslie, I appreciate your suggestion!

Sorry to hear that the PO withheld information such as the rudder issue. Sometimes people let money get in the way of honesty and that is too bad.
Removing a rudder is about removing the yoke at the top of the rudder post. Maybe loosening the stuffing box so the post will slip free. I would think the worst part of the job is having to work in such a tight space to undo the yoke. In my 35+ years of sailboat ownership I have never had to drop the rudder. Just lucky I guess. My friend did his 1982 O'Day 34 and I don't think it was a big deal. He may have dug a hole under the rudder to get it down enough to come out.

 

[1911tex]

You folks are most helpful and much appreciation from this end! I am not a wealthy person by any stretch, just living off Uncle Sugar L/E pilot retirement/savings...but what is and what should be is inherent in sailboat ownership.
Yes, the rudder could be repaired by someone knowledgeable; but the cost is a good chunk of a new rudder and passing this repair information years from now to a new owner would not be what I would, as a potential buyer, want to hear.
Plus the new design should be a desirable attribute. Still, the cost is pretty reasonable compared to 50 years ownership of several aircraft ! I just hope that my kiddos down the line would want me to keep this boat as a legacy.....time and interest will tell.

 

[Loren Beach]

I am amazed that there is no evidence of a hit on the keel!

FWIW, there is a lot of 'chance' involved in contacting USFO's (unidentified semi floating objects). I once whacked a deadhead while motoring down river in some short chop. Quite a bang when it hit up forward, and when it reappeared, it was about ten feet behind the stern. It could have just as easily come back up under the rudder had I been going slower. Perhaps. (?)

 

[Alan Gomes]

I definitely vote for going with the new rudder and getting an improved design in the process. The boat will be more fun to sail with the higher performance design. Even if you were to shave a bit off the top of the rudder so that it won't rub against the hull, I'll bet your rudder is not in the same plane as your keel due to the bend and it will affect the sailing performance.

Though I've never done it on your model of boat, dropping a rudder is generally not that bad of a job and should go fairly quickly. Just get it over and done with and go sailing. At least it will be a repair that is actually an upgrade, which takes a little bit of the sting out of it.

 

[Mark F]

Hi 1911tex,
What boat do you have?

 

[Loren Beach]

Per his bio here it is an Ericson 35-3, and looks like it might be an '85.
Hopefully he can include this info in his sig line.

And then, there's the title of the thread..

 

[Christian Williams]

Tex, big help to all if you put boat model in the signature line.

 

[Leslie Newman]

For me I do as much work on my boats as I can to save on boat bucks. Of course you are weighing time on the hard verses time on the water. Sitting on the hard adds to the cost. But if you are hauled for the winter anyway, then maybe you don't count that cost. My last boat was a CAL 33-2. The cabin sole was shot and I got a quote from the yard to replace. $5,000. Materials were $1,000, so they were wanting $4,000 labor. I figured maybe 40 hours of work there, and I know I do not make $4,000 a week. And the boat was maybe worth $25k. I opted to do the job myself. It turned out perfect and yes it did take me 40 hours. Materials cost me $800. And I had a job done to my satisfaction. Sometimes the job at hand is intimidating, but then you do some research and get started to find it was not that bad and you learned a lot more about your boat. I would suspect someone buying a 30+ year old boat is expecting there to have been repairs. Things break. Especially boat things. And we have YouTube now. We are not so much in the dark as years past so tackling some of these jobs not so intimidating.

 

[1911tex]

Correct...'85 E35-3
Christian..will do. Also saw your old movies going back to the early 60's...lots of great times!

 

[supersailor]

I'm a little confused here. I know there is an improved design rudder for the 35-2. I have heard nothing about the 35-3 which is essentially the same as the 34-2. The designed rudder works wonderfully.

I also hit a deadhead in the Gulf Islands with my previous boat. It surfaced , bobbed a few times and settled just below the surface again

 

[Christian Williams]

I gotta say, for lake sailing I'd probably just check for waterlogging, fix the blisters and grind off whatever's scraping the hull. If the boat steers correctly....

I'm with Loren on the rudder rebuild (video in post #2). What design feature resists the enormous turning force on the post armature? No ribs? I just scanned the video, but saw no consideration of rudder design. I've watched others of this fellow's videos...not my favorites.

 

[Afrakes]

Bite the bullet and get yourself a new rudder. The foam in your rudder is probably saturated anyway. Having owned three Ericsons, everyone of which had saturated rudders, I would replace the damaged one. After draining the water out of my 28's rudder and repairing the fiberglass skin I was out significant time and money. The boat dragged at mooring in a wicked storm and the bottom half of the rudder snapped clean off when it hit the sand beach. Luckily insurance paid for a Foss replacement. With a bent shaft, why screw around.

 

[1911tex]

Tex, big help to all if you put boat model in the signature line.

Ok It's done.

 

[1911tex]

Bite the bullet and get yourself a new rudder. The foam in your rudder is probably saturated anyway. Having owned three Ericsons, everyone of which had saturated rudders, I would replace the damaged one. After draining the water out of my 28's rudder and repairing the fiberglass skin I was out significant time and money. The boat dragged at mooring in a wicked storm and the bottom half of the rudder snapped clean off when it hit the sand beach. Luckily insurance paid for a Foss replacement. With a bent shaft, why screw around.

O.k. the order is placed with Foss. Either the next owner or my kiddos as a legacy will appreciate it!

 

[Loren Beach]

O.k. the order is placed with Foss. Either the next owner or my kiddos as a legacy will appreciate it!

Inquiring minds, and all that...... same blade shape and profile or a newer profile? (Either is fine, but... like, curiosity....)