Help, Crack on Bow!

[tenders]

Looks like that raised area is designed to give more stiffness and support to the anchor roller, and maybe create a nice visual line with the toe rail along the sheer. It's probably a slab of wood that's waterlogged and expanding when freezing.

What work exactly won't the marina let you do on site? Probably cutting and grinding - so get yourself an inverter and do what you need to do at anchor.

I'm not sure you yet need to remove the bow pulpit - only the anchor roller, and the horizontal screw going into the forecastle. With the right oscillating saw setup (you can put the blades on at 90 degrees to the handle!), a pack of extra blades, and an hour at anchor with your inverter and the engine running, you should be able to cut the raised area flush with the deck and see what's going on without removing the forestay or the stemplate. If you get the forecastle off in one piece you can fabricate a replacement out of G10 offsite. Go back to anchor when it's time for messy fairing and, if also verboten at the marina, painting. But I gotta believe that small-batch painting like that has gone on at the marina before.

 

[Kenneth K]

Now I am wondering if the raised forecastle area even needs to be raised. Could it be removed and the bow area repaired flush? With a new slightly longer bow roller to accomodate my Mantus anchor which doesn't fit the existing roller? That might also require a new bow chainplate though...

Doug,

I just removed my forestay for replacement. I was surprised how little I had to loosen the back stay to slacken the forestay enough for removal. With the forestay off, I've had no concern about having the mast supported with halyards and a slackened backstay for the next few weeks till I can get a replacement built.

On the 32-3, one side of the bow chainplate is actually welded to an elevated side of the anchor roller assembly (I'll post a picture when I get home). This weld, along with the wide and firmly bolted roller assembly must allow pretty much zero lateral movement in the bow chainplate.

Don't know if replacing the roller and welding (or otherwise anchoring) the chainplate to the assembly would be an option for you, but it would likely provide much more lateral support than the existing glassed in structure.

As for the marina, you could try playing dumb and asking forgiveness if they catch you. I have a generator you can borrow if you want to try the repair at anchor.

 

[Kenneth K]

Found this picture of the welded joint from another post. The weld is actually on two sides, not just one.

 

[Gaviate]

As an observation, looking at photo, I believe you could keep forestay and chainplate in place. Move pulpit, anchor roller, and other deck hardware if any in the way, and have at it. First screw on chainplate currently isn't doing much in rotted core so having it out whilst working is no biggie.
When I replaced rotted core on forepeak of Emgee I cut only the top layer of fiberglass and kept the bottom layer in place. It is a sandwich of core material between 2 layers of fiberglass. My core could be removed with a dull spoon once exposed.
Also, rather than lowering toe rail section to create flush forecastle, I raised it to create flush area level with TOP of toe rail. This preserved the asthetic of the sheer line continuous with remainder of toe rail down side of boat. So my forecastle is raised from bow side of cleat opening to point of bow.

 

[bigd14]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.

Do the cracks move when sailing, revealing forces at work?

Good point. I'll have to check. It's hard for me to wrap my head around how much force that area is actually subject to, perhaps observing it under sail will help. I suspect the area is so waterlogged that there will be continuing issues with freeze expansion until I replace the wood.

What work exactly won't the marina let you do on site?

Anything that creates dust. I like your idea of moving off site to complete the messy work. And I think you are right, I could probably remove everything while leaving the stanchions and chainplate in place. Thank you.

If you get the forecastle off in one piece you can fabricate a replacement out of G10 offsite.

Are you envisioning a solid block of G10 to fully replace the forecastle, or using the original "shell" to cover over a G10 wood-replacement filler to retain the visual appearance? Somehow I would need to glass over the entire thing and tie it all together to the deck and hull.

I've had no concern about having the mast supported with halyards and a slackened backstay for the next few weeks

That's great to hear, I always wondered how stable such an arrangement is!

the bow chainplate is actually welded to an elevated side of the anchor roller assembly

That's an interesting idea and would certainly solve some of the lateral play issues. How would one replace the chainplate though? I believe the anchor roller fitting is bronze on my boat so that may not be an option unless I go with a new SS anchor roller. I'll have to look closer.

you could try playing dumb and asking forgiveness if they catch you. I have a generator you can borrow if you want to try the repair at anchor.

No other workable options for marina's in my area, so I try to keep a low profile. Thank you for the generator offer! I may take you up on that.

I believe you could keep forestay and chainplate in place.

Thanks, yes. After thinking about it more, I agree with you and tenders.


At this point I am leaning towards removing the stemhead/anchor roller fitting and cutting into the forecastle to get the rot out and replacing with G10 in some form. Issues found during demolition will likely guide the ultimate repair method. My emergency backup plan consists of a haulout and repair by a local boatyard since I need bottom paint this year anyway.

 

[Loren Beach]

At this point I am leaning towards removing the stemhead/anchor roller fitting and cutting into the forecastle to get the rot out and replacing with G10 in some form. Issues found during demolition will likely guide the ultimate repair method. My emergency backup plan consists of a haulout and repair by a local boatyard since I need bottom paint this year anyway.

I have had better experiences in the last decade at Rocky Pointe Boat Yard. The others tend to be a real crap shoot.

 

[frick]

Instead of going through the deck think out going to the plywood from below. Ericson decks have a layer of glass over the plywood. Then multiple layers of glass over the plywood then finally the gel coat.

By opening up from below you will quickly discover how much wet wood you have. This method means some serious boat yoga forward of the vbirth, but it could mean an easier repair.
Rick

 

[tenders]

Instead of going through the deck think out going to the plywood from below. Ericson decks have a layer of glass over the plywood. Then multiple layers of glass over the plywood then finally the gel coat.

By opening up from below you will quickly discover how much wet wood you have. This method means some serious boat yoga forward of the vbirth, but it could mean an easier repair.
Rick

Here we have exposed a religious difference of opinion. I find the concept of fighting gravity so difficult and so fraught with a multitude of minor things that can go wrong in core repairs that I would never do one from below. Infidels like frick, and there are many of his ilk, seem to find the benefit of having to do less cosmetic work to be worth the gravity thing, and shrug off the further gymnastics that will be necessary to do the work jammed into the forepeak. Working on opposite sides of the deck like this, these two factions will never see eye to eye. Which is sad, because frick otherwise seems like a good dude and seamanlike sailor.

All of us will see you in hell regardless of which religion you choose, because the first repair like this you do is going to feel like you’ve staked out a small corner of fresh damnation no matter what. I can confirm that subsequent repairs are nowhere near as daunting.

 

[tenders]

(1) Are you envisioning a solid block of G10 to fully replace the forecastle, or using the original "shell" to cover over a G10 wood-replacement filler to retain the visual appearance?

(2) Somehow I would need to glass over the entire thing and tie it all together to the deck and hull.

(1) Too soon to tell but I’m inclined towards the former. The outer shells/skins I’ve removed from my boat for core repairs were too ugly/mangled/flexed/of inconsistent thickness to be desirable to put back. They were deck skins, though, so had been well-flexed atop the spongy core before the repairs were effected. See how you feel about yours after removal.

Solid G10 to me would be easy to fabricate and shape using the removed shell as a template, using perhaps 1/2” G10 as the “building block”. You could fashion it by cutting, stacking, and epoxying several layers of v-shaped G10, or by creating G10 beams and joining them into the v shape, which would create less waste but would involve more joiningwork.

(2) In either case though I don’t think you need to tie it particularly meticulously to the deck. Just epoxy it onto the solid deck on which it’s currently resting, run an epoxy fillet along the joint, and throughbolt the anchor roller through the vee and the underlying deck.

Of course you would need to establish that the deck core under the vee is of sound constitution. But replacing that core does not necessarily mean removing all of the fiberglass layer right underneath the vee. The fiberglass can be cut an inch or two short of that area, and the old core can be dug out and replaced horizontally with excellent results.

 

[bigd14]

I have had better experiences in the last decade at Rocky Pointe Boat Yard. The others tend to be a real crap shoot.

Thanks, I have heard the same. That is where I was planning on going for bottom paint.

Instead of going through the deck think out going to the plywood from below.

Here we have exposed a religious difference of opinion.

Hah! I have done both. I guess that makes me a fiberglass repair orientation atheist. Or maybe a polytheist? I believe in this case working from above would be easiest. I will need the use of both hands, which is not possible in the confines of the anchor locker, unless contorted into a position that I may not be able to recover from.

I awoke this morning at 0300 and as I am often able to do at this hour, found solutions to all the world's problems AND a potential solution to this boat problem, presented here for consideration:

Using the advice above I will remove the forecastle flush with the deck, excavate any rotten material remaining underneath it, replace any core material found in this area with G10 or other suitable material and glass the entire area back flush to the surrounding deck. This should suitably reinforce the entire structure. Then I will fashion a block of G10 into a new forecastle shape and place that over the top of the repaired deck. This I have seen other boats with a wood forecastle type piece attached to the deck to hold the anchor roller etc., so this should work.


Edit: Just saw tenders other email. I think we are on the same page here. Ensuring that the entire bow deck structure including core below the forecastle is sound and tied properly together to the hull should distribute any stresses evenly. Applying a separate forecastle structure over the top of the deck should make the entire repair (especially the fairing process) much easier than trying to integrate it all together.

 

[bigd14]

Found some old photos of the underside of the forecastle area. I forgot there is a tie bar running from one of the chainplate bolts to the aft center bolt on the anchor roller/bow/tack fitting (what do we call this thing anyway?) to resist the upward forces of a hanked on sail. I'm sure getting the anchor roller fitting off will be quite the exercise. Starting with the glassed over nut on the starboard side...

I am also now certain I will have to remove the bow pulpit and forward stanchion bases to find enough space to tie the repair area together with fiberglass. There is an decommissioned bow water tank fill cap that will be removed and glassed over.

Now to gather tools and materials and find a weather window. Using the boat project 3x time multiplier means I need six days of calm clear weather. Around here that doesn't usually happen until early July. Or apparently January or February in these modern "winters" we seem to be having nowadays.

Edit: (what do we call this thing anyway?) Stem Fitting?

 

[texlan]

Found some old photos of the underside of the forecastle area. I forgot there is a tie bar running from one of the chainplate bolts to the aft center bolt on the anchor roller/bow/tack fitting (what do we call this thing anyway?) to resist the upward forces of a hanked on sail. I'm sure getting the anchor roller fitting off will be quite the exercise. Starting with the glassed over nut on the starboard side...

I am also now certain I will have to remove the bow pulpit and forward stanchion bases to find enough space to tie the repair area together with fiberglass. There is an decommissioned bow water tank fill cap that will be removed and glassed over.

Now to gather tools and materials and find a weather window. Using the boat project 3x time multiplier means I need six days of calm clear weather. Around here that doesn't usually happen until early July. Or apparently January or February in these modern "winters" we seem to be having nowadays.

Edit: (what do we call this thing anyway?) Stem Fitting?

View attachment 41802 View attachment 41800 View attachment 41801

It's called a Stemhead / stemhead fitting.

When I removed my stemhead it was fastened to the forecastle by wood screws. Didn't seem appropriate for the expected tack loads but hey ymmv.... It was quite dry at that point, so I just filled the holes with epoxy and hung the stemhead on the wall. My boat's roller furled, so the stemhead isn't used and it had no integrated anchor roller on it -- that's a separate problem that I will probably be solving with some sort of sprit that'll include an assym/code sail tack.

I'm rooting for some clear weather for you! Keep some duct tape and poly sheeting around just in case mr. murphy hits the weather forecaster on the head and takes over.

 

[p.gazibara]

I’m gonna be removing my welded stemhead/anchor roller fitting soon. The weld between the two has rusted and formed a crack. IMO way better to keep the forestay chainplate and anchor roller separate if it can be. You won’t face the weld failure I’m seeing and they can both be removed separately if needed.

I had a very good engineer look at our chainplate fitting and he was shocked at how long it is after it bends around the stem. The lower 8” or so doesn’t appear to do anything at all. AKA none of the load is actually transmitted that far down the stem. The stock chainplates also looks undersized (at least for crossing oceans) and that’s probably why the roller is welded on in many instances.

My rig is keel stepped and will stand without any stays rigged, but if there is any swell/breeze it’s best to use the halyards to support it, just in case. Not sure if yours is the same.

I second the working at anchor thought. We actually removed our rig at anchor using a 66’ fero ketch’s main boom as a crane while we were rafted up in Tahiti. I added new backing plates to the rig and the new dyneema rigging before we restepped the mast using the ketch again. Was quite the spectical.

I also fixed a few soft spots in the deck during that stint in Tahiti. All very easy repairs to do at anchor. Highly recommend you make an epoxy kit for easy use/cleanup. Grab two old ketchup or sirracha bottles, fill one with alcohol, the other with vinegar. The alcohol bottle can then be used to easily clean any resin off prepped area or tools. The vinegar will neutralize the amine hardener and after a quick wipe the gooby epoxy mess can be neutralized and wiped with a paper towel or rag. I also highly recommend the pump kit for whatever epoxy branded system you choose. I recommend putting all of the above in a plastic bucket/container that way it is easy to grab, use, and cleanup. An old US/Kiwi boatbuilder showed me that trick.

You are probably spot on with the water causing the cracks.

-p

 

[NickSal]

Have the same crack on 38-200, had it since purchase 5 years ago. Fiberglassed it 2 years ago, cracked again.
Assumed it was wet plywood, but will check the chainplate.

 

[bigd14]

Reviving this thread to get opinions on fo’c’sle material. Repairs to date can be found here: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/fo’c’sle-rebuild-part-1.1023/

and here: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/ubs/fo’c’sle-rebuild-part-2.1027/

At this time I am leaning towards using a big plank of white oak, rather than G10 to recreate the fo’c’sle structure and hold the anchor roller. I dislike cutting and machining G10 because it is tough to machine, stinky, dusty and destroys blades and bits quickly. White oak is much easier to work with, but still durable, water resistant and significantly cheaper.

If it’s good enough for Tally Ho isn’t it good enough for me? https://sampsonboat.co.uk/63-milling-white-oak-in-new-england/

Or… is there a great future in plastics?

Doug

 

[Loren Beach]

How about using some 3/8" G10, and just building up the needed thickness with thickened epoxy? If you use a plank, you will still need to over drill, fill with epoxy, and re-drill anywhere a fastening penetrates it, anyhow.

 

[bigd14]

I was thinking I would need 3 layers of G10 but I like this idea. Thank you.

Nice to meet you in person Loren!

Doug