How to wire a #2 bilge pump along side #1; possible?

wynkoop

Member II
toddster-

Nice install with the barrier strip in a spot for easy access. Think I am going to change Silver Maiden's pump wiring to be like this instead of the splices in the bilge.

It makes service much easier. Pull old pump and swap in new pump with just a screw driver!
 

wynkoop

Member II
Christian-

My deck stepped mast has h2o enter the boat around where the wires enter the mast through the step. Try as I may to seal the darn thing I always have water running down. Next time the mast is off I plan to drill a drain hole, and install a tube to the bilge because the moisture is starting to rot a bulkhead.

I also have the bad fortune to have leaks all over the boat from things that need rebedding. That is the spring project.
 

garryh

Member III
"3. Each pump gets it's own discharge hose with a check valve. "
all good points, but I believe it is common wisdom to avoid check valves in bilge pump hoses
 

garryh

Member III
"My deck stepped mast has h2o enter the boat around where the wires enter the mast through the step. Try as I may to seal the darn thing I always have water running down. Next time the mast is off I plan to drill a drain hole, and install a tube to the bilge because the moisture is starting to rot a bulkhead"
Consider bringing your various wires out of the side of the mast at the base and passing them through (properly bedded) cable gland(s) to the interior.

"I also have the bad fortune to have leaks all over the boat from things that need rebedding"
you will undoubtedly also have some wet core issues to deal with and make sure the structural integrity of bulkheads has not been compromised by extensive rot. Extremely important
 

Kenneth K

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
I'm working on bilge pump upgrades as we speak. The 3-4 ft lead wires on my pumps won't permit a run to a convienent dry compartment without splices, so I'm trying a different route; a waterproof? (resistant) electrical box with bus boards mounted inside. The box will mount below the sole but the wires will have enough slack to raise the assembly above the sole for maintenance.

20200214_011309.jpg

I'd have rather used tinned-copper bus boards than the brass that is shown, but I haven't been able to find them in this style yet. If the box is really moisture-proof, maybe the brass will be okay. I'm still at the "proof of concept" phase, but it looks like the initial installation will work.

I'm also replacing the old floating-arm type float switch with an Aqualarm Smart Switch. I like the cylindrical shape which takes up less footprint in the bilge. It also has some cool features--it runs for 20 additional seconds after the float switch shuts off, and if it runs for longer than 2 minutes, it sends a signal back through a separate wire which can be hooked to an alarm, strobe etc for a warning device.
 

wynkoop

Member II
I have never had an issue with the check valves in my discharge lines. Before I had them the pumps would cycle as water that made it out of the bilge, but not out of the boat drained back into the bilge. The check valve also keeps the water that hits the transom when the seas are from astern from entering the bilge via the pump line.
 

wynkoop

Member II
garryh -

I only have one bulkhead to worry about. It is the head bulkhead and is not structural. It has some slight water damage. It looks mostly like something a quick sanding, hitting with a bit of epoxy and a revarnish will take care of from the standpoint of preservation. Not pretty, but will be fine.

I could also I suppose install a proper cable feedthrough inside the mast step as well. I have the hole there already from the factory.

The deck on the cabin top is delaminated due to water ingress. Another spring project.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Moderator
Blogs Author
check valves

The idea is that if they clog or fail the bilge pump system is useless. They do clog and fail frequently, given the glop in bilges. And they're often hidden or difficult of access.

I'd say check valves are defensible as long as you can get to them easily to take them apart if necessary. And if a stuck check valve has to be cut out, will the remaining bilge hose still reach the bilge (because if it won't...._).

Many owners, unlike everybody reading this thread, have never traced their bilge lines. It isn't something to do when the water covers the floorboards.

As usual, awareness allows many personal choices.
 

garryh

Member III
check valves are one of those contentious issues, a 'your boat your choice' kind of thing. The amount of water coming back from the hose is qute marginal. The in line check valve significantly reduces flow and can accumulate blockages.
 

garryh

Member III
"I could also I suppose install a proper cable feed through inside the mast step as well. I have the hole there already from the factory. "
my boat had this set up but I moved the wires outside. If inside there might be a time when you would have to pull the mast to troubleshoot mast wiring issues. Possibly better if no connections inside the mast, all inside the cabin.
 

garryh

Member III
"It is the head bulkhead and is not structural. "
I think it would be fair to say that all bulkheads are structural... some more than others. If you have one near the mast, I think it is one of the more structural vs less structural. You can't see the extent of the rot because the area of rot is mostly concealed by the tabbing. On mine, I could see rot above and rot below, so assumed there was lots of rot contained within the tabbing where the plywood could not breathe
 

wynkoop

Member II
garryh-

Good points on check valves. Mine are right at the turn of the bilge where the bilge access hatch is under my ladder. Easy to get to and have not yet gotten glopped up, but then again just like flushing my fresh water system I also flush the bilges and bilge pumps and lines. Yes easy to bypass and not have a problem reaching. Something I thought of when I installed them.

I like your reasoning on the external cable connection and will change next time I unstep the mast.

On the bulkhead. Since it only divides off the head not sure how it can be structural. Only goes 1/2 across the boat. Now the post at the end that is under the mast is for sure structural. I have done a good check of the mahogeny ply the bulkhead is made of and it seems to only be the nice pretty veneer that is screwed. I actually pealed it back when I saw the issue, but yes in warm weather there is much to do.
 

garryh

Member III
All bulkheads are structural, some more critical than others. But the series of bulkheads and half bulkheads and tabbings and stringers are a structural system, or the ‘skeleton’ of the boat, which retains the hull shape and allows the hull to resist the many forces exerted in a seaway and tensions from the rigging. Without them, the hull would distort and crush quickly.
 

HerbertFriedman

Member III
Novice question(s):

Should a bilge be completely dry? Is 1" of water okay? 2" of water? The prop shaft spinning should let water into the bilge, so even under 'normal circumstances' the boat takes on a bit of water.

Do fastidious owners dry out the bilge with turkey basters and sponges after every sail?

Or is the "acceptable bilge volume" of a choice by the user?

FWIW my boat has:

1. Diaphragm pump mounted in the the engine compartment. It clatters for about 1-2 minutes before it starts to draw water. When I flip the factory switch marked "Bilge Pump" on the panel, this operates. It looks original to the boat.

2. A sump-pump style (centrifugal, it sounds like) pump in the same bilge compartment. There is an after-market switch on the electrical panel labeled on/off/automatic and I believe this is also triggered by a float switch. I was told this is wired directly to the battery so that even if a clever sailor turns off his batteries to save power, the sump pump will wake up and get busy when the water triggers the float switch. If I have anything to add to @1911tex it would be to consider a similar fail-safe wiring plan.

3. The whale gusher Mk-3 manual bilge pump in the cockpit.

4. I have a bilge switch located in my head cabin. Nothing seems to happen when I turn it on, but I haven't worried about that yet, as it is low on my repair priorities. Is it connected to something? I hope so. @Loren Beach - If you have two diaphragm pumps, are they both located in your engine compartment? Where is the shower pump located?
 

Tin Kicker

Member III
Note that check valves are already part of the mechanism in diaphragm pumps. That's why diaphragm pumps need an inlet strainer, which is a potential failure point if loose paper or other debris can cover the screen.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
Herb, I have one pump control panel mounted at the nav desk and a separate one (for a separate pump) mounted in the head compartment. Both are diaphragm Jabsco pumps. Actually our head with shower just drains thru a fancy teak grating into the main bilge. There is no separate bilge for the water from showering.
 

Kenneth K

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
Just saw these manufacturer's comments as I was looking at new Rule centrifugal bilge pumps--reasons why their pump's outputs are so much lowers than claimed:

Note — The capacity of ALL centrifugal bilge pumps, regardless of manufacturer, is rated at "open flow" — with no hoses or resistance to impede output. In actual use, however, the work of lifting the bilge water out of the boat will decrease the output of the pump.
The higher the lift, the less the output.
For a typical smaller bilge pump, expect an output decrease of approximately 8% per foot of lift.
For this Rule 1500 gph pump, the tested output is about 83% of rated capacity when the maximum height of the discharge hose (not the outlet thru-hull) is 2 ft above the pump, and about 67% of rated output at 4 ft above the pump.
Pump output is further decreased by long discharge runs, any elbows in the discharge line, internal corrugations in the hose selected, etc.

And also,

Repsonding to customer feedback, Rule has redesigned and improved their standard 800 GPH bilge pump to provide the advertised flow rate at just 12 volts rather than the 13.6 volts previously required (24 volts vs. 27.2 volts for the 24V model) ... more typical of real-world onboard voltage supplies.
 
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Kenneth K

Sustaining Member
Blogs Author
The pump breaker in the E32-3 is 10A which was probably typical for our boats. My boat came with two Rule 1500 centrifugals which are 4.8A each.
@Tin Kicker - I have a 32-3 also. My bilge hoses (mast and main elect pump) are 3/4" clear plastic tubing. When I got the boat, it had rule 500gph pumps in it. I swapped the main pump to the Rule 800, but that's the largest Rule centrifugal with 3/4" ports.

The Rule 1500 uses 1 1/8" hose. How did you swing that? And, what is the fit like on those bigger pumps between the keel bolts and the bilge walls?

Thanks.
 

Tin Kicker

Member III
@Tin Kicker - I have a 32-3 also. My bilge hoses (mast and main elect pump) are 3/4" clear plastic tubing. When I got the boat, it had rule 500gph pumps in it. I swapped the main pump to the Rule 800, but that's the largest Rule centrifugal with 3/4" ports.

The Rule 1500 uses 1 1/8" hose. How did you swing that? And, what is the fit like on those bigger pumps between the keel bolts and the bilge walls?

Thanks.
I'm rebuilding the fuel system right now and not yet to replacing the pumps but the plan is to basically follow the path Christian used. The mast/shower will keep the small Rule and I'll change the main to the diaphragm. All of my 35 year old hoses are being replaced. Only the hose for the diaphragm needs space between the bolts and I'll be putting reticulated gutter foam* over it as a coarse strainer before the bilge water gets to an inline strainer.

* https://www.homedepot.com/p/GUTTERSTUFF-3-in-x-4-in-Downspout-Gutter-Guard-GS-DS12487-HD/306938552
 
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