Improving E25 CB Pointing

[olsenjohn]

Hi Forum Members,

I am looking for input specific to an E25 Mark 1 on tuning the rig for pointing ability. We raced "Janie Ann" in a multi day regatta this past weekend and did well, came in 2nd place for my division. The picture below is at the start of the first race on Saturday. But of course I want to do better next year and so looking for improvements or differences between us and the boat that took first, a Tanzer 22 full keel masthead rig. The biggest thing that stood out was that we did not point anywhere near as well, and the skipper of that boat said the same thing at the awards ceremony, that my pointing lower was the main thing that kept him ahead. Of course he is also a very good skipper. Our boat speed was a little better both in light winds the first day and 10-15 knots the second day, but he pointed at least 5 to 7 degrees higher (a guess from both of us) in all conditions and so steadily moved away from us to windward gaining ground on every tack. In contrast I will say we seemed to point just as well as the the other boats in my division (Catalina 27, Catalina 28, Pearson 27, Hunter 280, etc.) who we beat.

The Ericson owners manual offers very little in the way of tuning the rig, saying only that the mast should be vertical and in column. I struggle to believe that it should have zero rake, and right now it is close to zero, around 1 degree. Mast is in column under load, and the shroud tensions are set with a Loos gauge and then adjusted under sail. Anybody have experience with the E25 racing? Experience in what is the best tuning setup for that specific boat? Or even knowledge on the E25 CB pointing ability? Perhaps they just are not as good pointing as the Tanzer 22. Would welcome any suggestions.

 

[Alan Gomes]

What kind of shape are your sails in?

 

[olsenjohn]

Thanks for the reply! New Doyle sails, less maybe two years old but with limited use last year due to COVID. Genoa is a laminate material. Hull, centerboard, and rudder were professionally faired last year and coated with Petit Black Widow then burnished to a shine. Boat was pulled onto trailer and bottom was cleaned just before the race. Standing rigging is just a few years old, and all running rigging has been replaced with modern low stretch materials. The boat is in tip top shape, but I think probably not tuned right. Hard to find someone who knows much about tuning a 48 year old boat..... I certainly am not an expert.

 

[Loren Beach]

Good questions to bring to the upcoming Ericson zoom meeting, I would guess...

 

[Alan Gomes]

Thanks for the reply! New Doyle sails, less maybe two years old but with limited use last year due to COVID. Genoa is a laminate material. Hull, centerboard, and rudder were professionally faired last year and coated with Petit Black Widow then burnished to a shine. Boat was pulled onto trailer and bottom was cleaned just before the race. Standing rigging is just a few years old, and all running rigging has been replaced with modern low stretch materials. The boat is in tip top shape, but I think probably not tuned right. Hard to find someone who knows much about tuning a 48 year old boat..... I certainly am not an expert.

Interesting. Sounds like you are OK in the sails dept.

Your query reminds me of something I read on the "Boat Check" listings on the SailNet site sometime back. These were owner reviews of a variety of boats, including the Ericson 26-2. (I can no longer find these listings on SailNet, by the way.) The Ericson 26-2 is a very different boat from yours, but I was struck by one very thoughtful review that brought up the identical issue your have described by someone who was obviously a very competent racer with significant small boat racing experience. He said that what he did was move the mast step forward (I believe it was) by a few inches (again, I'm going by memory here). He claims it made a dramatic improvement in the boat's pointing and windward performance.

Obviously, that's a fair bit more work than merely adjusting the mast rake. I suppose I'd mess with mast rake before I did anything as radical as moving the mast step (and I wouldn't consider doing that unless I had some clear rationale as to why it would help). Also, what are your sheeting angles like on that boat?

Any hot shot sailmakers or racing gurus who could go out with you and see what they think?

 

[G Kiba]

PHRF of the Tanzer here in the Bay Area is 237. Ericson 25+ is 210, Catalinas are 204 and 198. My guess is the Tanzer has good local knowledge of currents and winds and/or just plain out sailed you. Happens to me too often. Put an Olympic level (or same skilled person) on any boat and you will not believe the difference. Richmond Yacht Club has some great sailors and you quickly learn it’s not all boat.

 

[olsenjohn]

Interesting on the 26-2 comments. The skipper of the Tanzer 22 said he thought my mast rake was wrong and advised me to consult this forum for the optimal tuning, which of course I did. He talked of the Tanzer Forum that gave detailed specifics on mast rake and other tuning criteria. The crew members I had were 76 and 81 years old, racing all their lives, including major races like Chicago to Mackinaw. They thought everything looked good, but again, advised me to consult this forum because they thought the tuning was not quite right but could not put their finger on what was wrong. LOL. I have not yet found any gurus to help, and the Doyle sailmaker has helped but doesn't know my specifics. He did offer for me to bring the boat to him, but that is a 5 hour drive away and I am not keen on making the trip.

I will say that I was quite pleased when the skipper of a Ranger 28 that took first place in the under 200 PHRF division came up to me at the awards ceremony and told me "that's a fast boat you got there, if you figure out how to handle her you could be dangerous". We did finish ahead of half the boats in under 200 without time adjustment. Just sayin..... I love my boat, quite proud of her. But dang it, 5 degrees better pointing translates to 5 minutes better time on averages with our races. It puts first place in reach.... Sigh....

 

[olsenjohn]

PHRF of the Tanzer here in the Bay Area is 237. Ericson 25+ is 210, Catalinas are 204 and 198. My guess is the Tanzer has good local knowledge of currents and winds and/or just plain out sailed you. Happens to me too often. Put an Olympic level (or same skilled person) on any boat and you will not believe the difference. Richmond Yacht Club has some great sailors and you quickly learn it’s not all boat.

Very good point. The Tanzer 22 here is rated 231, and I am rated 225 for a 25-1 (not 25+). He is a great skipper, been sailing the area for 30 plus years. And that definitely counts for a lot. I will very willing admit he is a better racer than me. But side by side, boat for boat, he was clearly out pointing us, and I want to know why.

 

[G Kiba]

Go sailing with him or better yet have him sail on your boat. You might be surprised what you will learn. Either way it’s always great fun to sail with other good sailors. I changed the mast rake on my E27 and it removed a lot of weather helm (loosen forestay and tightened backstay to re-tension it) found that traveling down to close the gap between the jib and main helped my boat point better than traveling up. This seems to be different on all boats. Atleast it’s a few things you can try. My 911 has a bendy mast, so lots of backstay works wonders. Good luck to you and have fun.

 

[G Kiba]

Oh, just a few more thoughts. If you can’t beat him upwind, don’t sail his course, sail the course that fits your boat best. Maybe beat him downwind?

 

[gabriel]

Have you confirmed that the centerboard is dropping fully?

 

[Christian Williams]

Experiment with the genoa slot. Use a barber hauler, or any line rigged temporarily to pull the clew inboard when close hauled.

A deck track is rarely optimal at all jib positions. May or may not help, but something to try.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I changed the mast rake on my E27 and it removed a lot of weather helm (loosen forestay and tightened backstay to re-tension it

I would think that would give you more weather helm as the center of effort would be further back loading the rudder . It certainly would improve pointing

 

[olsenjohn]

Thank you all for your suggestions and inputs on things to check. Next summer on Lake Huron I will have lots of time to try new things out and practice more.

 

[G Kiba]

I would think that would give you more weather helm as the center of effort would be further back loading the rudder . It certainly would improve pointing

One would think so, but not the case here. It changed the boat so much that I was angry that I had sailed it for 5 years fighting the tiller thinking that was normal. The boat became so neutral and well behaved that I could, and often did, lock the tiller and go sit on the rail or bow for miles in 10-12 knot winds. Friends would tell me how I would look pretty stupid falling off and watching the boat sail off on its own. At least on a river, I can swim to shore and the boat would likely run aground in the mud eventually.

 

[Mblace]

I have not sailed my E-25cb yet, but if memory serves from marine engineering classes and past sailing experience, a centerboard boat (generally speaking) will not point up as well as a full keel boat. Obviously wind speed, mast tuning, sail choice, sail set, angle of heel, etc. will also influence pointing ability. I fly sailplanes and we “tune” the trim by adjusting the CG fore and aft (sailplanes all have a “sweet spot” in their CG range) to optimize neutral trim for best L/D, and we add water ballast in the wings to move the polar up the speed curve for racing. I would assume there is a similar sweet spot for every sailboat, a point at which point of sail, balance and speed are optimized to give best vmg. I’d bet there are some designers out there who have algorithms that can take empirical data from testing and poop out a set of graphs or tables that give you the optimum numbers. Watching the last Americas Cup it was obvious that design choices based on testing to optimize the boats for certain conditions sealed the outcome…

 

[Alan Gomes]

I have not sailed my E-25cb yet, but if memory serves from marine engineering classes and past sailing experience, a centerboard boat (generally speaking) will not point up as well as a full keel boat. Obviously wind speed, mast tuning, sail choice, sail set, angle of heel, etc. will also influence pointing ability. I fly sailplanes and we “tune” the trim by adjusting the CG fore and aft (sailplanes all have a “sweet spot” in their CG range) to optimize neutral trim for best L/D, and we add water ballast in the wings to move the polar up the speed curve for racing. I would assume there is a similar sweet spot for every sailboat, a point at which point of sail, balance and speed are optimized to give best vmg. I’d bet there are some designers out there who have algorithms that can take empirical data from testing and poop out a set of graphs or tables that give you the optimum numbers. Watching the last Americas Cup it was obvious that design choices based on testing to optimize the boats for certain conditions sealed the outcome…

By "full keel" I assume you must mean "fin keel." Full keel boats generally don't go to weather worth a darn.

Your overall point is worth considering, though. Perhaps the centerboard shape on the E25 CB isn't all that hydrodynamically efficient.

 

[gabriel]

By "full keel" I assume you must mean "fin keel." Full keel boats generally don't go to weather worth a darn.

Your overall point is worth considering, though. Perhaps the centerboard shape on the E25 CB isn't all that hydrodynamically efficient.

I never sailed with the original board, but the aftermarket one I bought came with the claim by the manufacturer that their foil section is superior to the original. I believe it, it’s half the thickness.

 

[Mblace]

By "full keel" I assume you must mean "fin keel." Full keel boats generally don't go to weather worth a darn.

Your overall point is worth considering, though. Perhaps the centerboard shape on the E25 CB isn't all that hydrodynamically efficient.

Indeed. Probably better to have said fixed blade-shaped keel, or fin keel - didn’t mean a full-keel boat like a Morgan or Cape Dory. I’m making the assumption that the shape of the hull at the keel junction and shape of the keel itself has a lot to do with both agility and pointing efficiency.

 

[olsenjohn]

Interesting comments around the CB perhaps not pointing as well as a fin keel. Just to clarify, the Tanzer 22 is a fin keel. I also posted a great shot of the Ericson 25 beating to windward next to the Tanzer. Just to help everyone visualize....

Just like Gabriel I replaced my centerboard with the aftermarket version. The new one I put in appeared to be close to the original thickness of the one I replaced, though it was swelled and disintegrating so hard to compare. It seemed like a nice shape, but who knows.

The skipper of the Tanzer 22 is a great guy and we talked on the phone for a bit. He explained to me in detail how he optimized his rake for pointing, saying that a relatively small difference in rake can easily affect his pointing by as much 5 degrees, and if it is really out of whack significantly more. I summed up the conversation below. Note this is not my work, but what he recommended.

1. Start with the Windex and take great pains to ensure both arms are at 30 degrees from centerline and even on both sides. Extra work here is important as an offset Windex will make it look different on each tack. Angle does not really matter, it is just a reference and target for you to watch as you change rake. And yes, a bird will land on it tomorrow but what is important is it is accurate today for the tuning.
2. Put the mast rake close to zero as a starting point. Of course his boat uses hank on sails and has a deck stepped mast, as does mine, so this relatively easy with the turnbuckle and backstay adjuster.
3. Pick a day with 5 to 10 knots of wind, average conditions. Your going for a middle of the road here.
4. Bend on the genoa you are most likely to use in a race. Around here that is a 170 for him, would be my 145.
5. Go sailing. Play with sail tune and tack, and tack, and tack..... until you think you have it going the best upwind.
6. Using the width of the Windex arrow tail as a reference write down where you are relative to the 30 degrees of the arms from centerline.
7. Add a small amount of rake to the mast. Repeat steps 1 through 4. Keep doing this until you start getting worse pointing.
8. Once you start getting worse pointing, go back to previous rake. Because changes are subtle you might have to go back two settings to get optimum.

He also commented that most people just use the Windex as a tool for the wind direction. He said he uses it as an upwind pointing reference, and has it set up so when the arrow is lined up on top of the arm he knows he is pointing at his best. Next spring I will be back up north sailing on Lake Huron so should be able to pick a good couple of days and have lots of open room to practice and try this tuning technique. Winds here on the lakes in North Carolina are so flukey and shifty would be an exercise in frustration. Will be interesting to see the results from this. But I guess it will have to wait for spring!

Thank you again everyone for your input!