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Incorrect NOAA Charts

wynkoop

Member III
So I have been making a detailed study of the charts of the New York City waters while looking for a new home for Silver Maiden.

I have been spending LOADS of time looking at NOAA charts on line at the NOAA site in PDF format, and some in ENC format on an android app I have.

I find they have outdated information on them. I thought the whole thing about electronic chart publication was that NOAA could keep the charts updated and we no longer had to do chart corrections, but could instead just grab a new electronic chart and go!

One key example is the Mill Basin bridge, which I will have to pass under if I move the boat to Mill Basin is still listed as a lift bridge with 35 foot clearance, yet that bridge has been gone for several years and is replaced with a fixed bridge. The contractor that built the bridge claims it is at 60 feet, but I can find no mention of the new bridge in any official government publication.

Interestingly enough the NYC Department of Transportation still lists that bridge on their list of movable bridges, but I have driven over the new bridge hundreds of times. It is indeed a fixed bridge.

Another example is the Kosciuszko bridge over Newtown creek. Everything I find on charts seems to reference the OLD bridge. The old bridge is gone, replaced with 2 new bridges.

If NOAA is not producing accurate charts what is a sailor to do?
 

Tin Kicker

Sustaining Member
Moderator
Yup. Charts can be wrong.
USS San Francisco for example:
SSN-711-damages_01.jpg


After last year's hurricanes in the Bahamas, I hear their charts are a suggestion at this point.
 

Christian Williams

E381 - Los Angeles
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author
As I undersand it, NOAA charts always had to be updated--which recreational sailors seldom bother to do.

Print-on-Demand charts are supposed to arrive with the latest updates.
 

wynkoop

Member III
Yes NOAA charts in the old days when they were issued once or twice a year had to be updated even when new. As a deck officer on cargo ships I spent many hours reading notice to mariners and updating charts by hand.

My point is that an electronic chart currently showing in the ENC viewer on the NOAA web site still lists a bridge as a movable bridge with a 10.3 meter (why meters when everything else is in feet?) clearance closed. That bridge has been a fixed bridge at about 60 feet for about 3 years. In 3 years they could not update the electronic chart? Really? Heck they could list it as fixed with approximate for the height if they felt the need to remeasure themselves.

So much for Print On Demand and ENC being up to date.

On the ENC chart viewer find Mill Basin, NY. It leads out to Jamaca Bay. You will see a movable bridge.

So guys it is not about "charts can be wrong". Of course they can, but for NOAA to have the wrong information for years on something as simple as a bridge changing from movable to fixed with a fixed clearance is downright unacceptable.
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Depends on when there was last an actual survey and what exactly was surveyed. The only thing routinely measured on the Columbia seems to be depths within the marked shipping channel. The occasional wandering sandbar notwithstanding. Features on the shoreline don't seem to have been updated since the 1930's. There are piers and beacons on the charts that haven't existed since before WWII.
 

Slick470

Member III
NOAA has limited resources and the US has a lot of shoreline to cover. They prioritize shipping channels and commercial harbors and everything else is is on an as needed basis.
 

GrandpaSteve

Sustaining Member
FWIW, this is what Navionics says about the Mill Basin bridge:
Restriction Notes:
No more Bascule Bridge. Brand new Fixed Bridge. 60ft height at high water.
 

frick

Member III
the noaa chaers for the great south bay of long island are over 25 years old. local knowledge is important
 

wynkoop

Member III
GrandpaSteve-

Yep fixed Bridge at 60 feet, but the charts NOAA has on their electronic chart web site still says Bascule Bridge. I suspect Navionics is doing correction for their subscribers.

At the moment I am not subscribed to services and just using what the Government provides. I really think something as simple as updating a bridge that was changed 3 years ago should not be a big deal.
 

wynkoop

Member III
Called the NOAA number for comments on the electronic charts yesterday at 1600. Today at 0900 got a call back from Nick at NOAA. He happily took my three corrections to the NY area charts (2 bridges and 1 radio station) and said I should see the updates in a few weeks.

He said if folks know of chart issues they should contact NOAA as that is the first step in getting the charts fixed. On the two bridges he is going to poke the USCG to get him the final bridge information as they are the ones that interface with the bridge builders, and on the radio station he will be going to the FCC database.

So if you know of chart issues reach out to NOAA and they will jump on it quick.

NOAA number for electronic chart products - 888-990-6622 - Leave a message and then expect a call back from a 301 number.
 

supersailor

Contributing Partner
I have always attempted to use two sources of info. Three boats from our club were up north sailing in 2012. The chart plotters on two of them showed an island ahead. The third one didn't. Important info in a heavy fog.
 

wynkoop

Member III
Some things they can verify and turn around quick. Bridges are an example of that because other agencies have official records and sign offs when bridges change, are removed or are built. Those Nick said turn around pretty quick because the same day they get the info they reach out to the USCG for the engineering info and as soon as they have the info and confirm with the engineering company who got the permits they can change the chart.

The radio tower I pointed out to them will take a bit longer because in addition to looking in the FCC database to verify that WQXR is no longer on 1560 AM (they have been an FM station since at least 1977) he wants to put it on the list of site visits for his NY area inspector to see if the tower even exists any more. He was not sure when the next site visit to NYC would be.

So my fellow sailors let's give NOAA the data they need to update our charts. I am going to a USCG Aux meeting this week, they are trying to get me to join, and I am going to share this with them as well.
 

wynkoop

Member III
Riddle me this; when is a complete bridge that has been open with no signs of construction for more than three years complete?

When the USCG gets around to telling NOAA it is complete.

The Mill Basin Bridge, which started my quest, has been open and without the slightest sign of construction either at the water or on the roadway for about 3 years, and the other bridge I reported to NOAA had the official opening of it's second span last summer, but when NOAA reached out to USCG they said nope still under construction.

See below:

---------------------------cut here---------------------------------------------

Mr. Wynkoop,

Thank you very much for your inquiry to NOAA regarding chartered bridges
under construction. We've contacted the US Coast Guard for the status of
the bridges and get the response that both of those bridges are still under
construction. Per the USCG, they are in the final stages of the project and
both are expected to be completed by the end of Spring 2020. Since the USCG
is the authority for the bridges over US navigational waters we need to
receive the official completion report in order to change the status of the
bridges on our charts. Thank you for your patience.

Respectively,
*Sladjana Maksimovic - Medic*
*Cartographer *

-------------------------------------cut here--------------------------------
 

toddster

Curator of Broken Parts
Blogs Author
Reminds me a bit of an interstate highway construction project near here. Actually, just a bike path, adjacent to the highway. They kept a large diesel truck on the shoulder of the highway, with a flashing light and a few cones, for years after the project was apparently completed. No discernible activity of any kind, except that truck sitting there. It was removed only last month. The only change that I can see is that they appeared to have hydro-seeded the bank and maybe planted a couple of shrubs.

Speaking of which, the highway along the river (late 1950's) is on the chart, though other features that were demolished to make room for it are also still on the chart. One dredged channel that may have been associated with highway construction is not on the chart, though it is buoyed correctly. A while back, I heard an excited VHF conversation about that when a new cruise ship captain encountered a barge tow in that area. Maybe they're waiting for someone to finish the landscaping. ;)
 

wynkoop

Member III
Toddster I strongly suggest you contact NOAA and give them any information you can. It will at the least get them looking for the information from official channels. They have exchanged several messages with me regarding chart updates in the last 24 hours.
 
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