Loose Tiller on E27

[edwardest]

Hello,
I have an 1973 Ericson 27 and there is 'considerable' play in the tiller. It's coming from where the metal bracket that forms the end of the tiller attaches to the big bronze top of the rudder post (ie the bolt 'hinge' that allows the tiller to move up and down). The bearings associated with the rudder itself seem tight.

I've started a bit of racing the play has moved from the 'annoying' to 'problem' category.

Previous investigation revealed that the bolt hole that attaches the tiller is rounded into an hour-glass shape, allowing movement. Last year I drilled this hole a bit bigger (it was 3/8" (9.5mm) and I upped it to 10mm). This and some new washers helped a little, but it's still pretty wobbly.

I could drill it even bigger, but I'm afraid of weakening the attachment point. I can tighten the bolts really hard and reduce wobble this way, but this makes the tiller tight to move up and down, works loose in a month or so, and makes me concerned that I'm going to damage the bracket on the tiller as I'm basically squeezing it shut.

Is there a recommended fix for this? I had originally tried to find some sort of sleeve to 'un-taper' the holes, but couldn't find anything.

Is it safe to drill this noticeably bigger (7/16", 1/2")?
Is there a way to restore the holes to a less hour-glass shape (without trapping undo moisture or inducing corrosion with mismatched metals)? This must be a problem solved by folks over the centuries...

Cheers,
Ed

 

[Jeff Asbury]

I as well had too much play there, as well as worn holes at the top of the rudder post. I considered drilling it out for a larger diameter bolt, but the next bolt size up was too large.

I found that I just needed to tighten the bolt at the bottom front of the tiller head (bracket that attaches tiller to post) , which pinches the base of the head tighter around the rudder post. I did add a couple of lock washers on both sides of the bolt there so I could get a socket around the nut and the bolt head without digging into the tiller head. Not sure if you have the same kind of tiller head that I do.

If so try this first. The bolt that goes through the rudder does not need to be that tight.

The play is now gone. See attached pic.

 

[edwardest]

Wow Jeff,
Thanks for the quick reply. ooks by your signature like you've got *exactly* my boat too: sweet!

I suppose I could crank that bolt tighter. I was worried that the bronze might be brittle and snap rather than bend in tighter. There seems to be a decent (1/8" or so) gap between the tiller bracket and rudder post.

I notice in that attached photo is mentions a 5/8" bolt. Do you know if that's what you have? As mine was certainly a 3/8" to begin with. Would make me feel better about drilling it out to 5/16 if that was the 'intended' size anyway

I'll try to take a picture of the bracket joint for opinions on snap versus bend...

 

[tenders]

Had the same problem on my '69 tiller-steered 32 and decided to fix it for good when I replaced the rudder this spring.

The play came from two sources:

* the tiller fitting was (apparently by design) a bit wider than the attachment (pivot) point on the rudder cap, so 1/16" bronze shims were installed on both sides to take up the play. Over time, the shims wore paper-thin, which encouraged wobble;
* the threads on the bolt going through the tiller and rudder cap bit into some of the meat on one side of the hole

These wore the the hole into an oval on both sides over many years and the wobble got progressively worse. Tightening the forward midships bolt didn't help; the wobble was between the tiller and the rudder cap, not the rudder cap and the rudder post.

My solution involved:

* drilling a hole two sizes larger through the tiller fitting and rudder cap. This was a substantial size increase but my machinist brother-in-law felt there was plenty of meat left in the fittings, plus with a larger throughbolt the force is spread out over a wider area. I tried to do this myself but the irregular size of the rudder cap made it impossible to place precisely into my basic bench-mounted drill press. It turns out there are special bits for drilling bronze, which my BIL had on hand, plus a Bridgeport milling machine for very precise hole placement. This makes all the difference--everyone should have one! In fact he grazed through the forward wall of the bolt hole in the middle of the cast rudder cap fitting and wasn't concerned because he knew exactly where he was going. But this is not a stress point; the edges are where the stress is taken. Point is, doing this right was a lot harder than I expected.

* refabricating the shims using 1/16" 220-alloy bronze sheet from mcmaster.com. I still have a lot of this left and would be happy to send you enough to keep you in this particular shim thickness for 50 years, if it would help. Making these turned out to be pretty easy, I traced the old one on a piece of paper, transferred that to the bronze, and cut it out with a jigsaw. There is a little wing on the bottom of each shim that hangs out under the tiller so the shim stays properly oriented between the tiller fitting and the rudder cap. This was easily bent into the new shim with a vise and a sledgehammer. Then I filed it down to the exact size with a bench grinder and a Dremel. I had to make three because I bent the wings of one the wrong way, but even so, making these was much easier than I expected.

* buying a throughbolt to fit the new Bridgeport hole that was considerably longer than necessary, and using a die to cut the thread sufficiently far down into the unthreaded shaft of the bolt to allow the tiller fitting to be tight against the rudder cap but not so far as to let the threads bite into the rudder cap or tiller fitting again. This was easy too, with a full tap and die set from Harbor Freight. I'd never used a die before, only a tap.

The wobble is out without employing any Herculean force on any of the fittings. And, as importantly, as long as I keep an eye on those shims in 10 years or so I don't think the wobble is ever coming back again.

 

[tenders]

Wow Jeff,
I suppose I could crank that bolt tighter. I was worried that the bronze might be brittle and snap rather than bend in tighter. There seems to be a decent (1/8" or so) gap between the tiller bracket and rudder post.

I think, eventually, if you crank on that you are running the risk of snapping it under further pressure when sailing. Also, if you bend it, it'll be hard to drill out a square (fair) hole, and you still have the worn oval hole in the other piece.

"1/8" or so gap," Hmmmm, hmmmm, hmmmmm.
* 1 square foot of McMaster's 1/16" 220 bronze shimstock is $49.30 plus shipping
* 1/16" x 2 = 1/8"
* I do not forsee a use for the remaining 110+ square inches of the piece I have.
* May I help you solve part of the problem?

 

[Jeff Asbury]

I made that adjustment over a year ago, so far no problem. I had a mechanic look at the worn holes on the rudder post (really only one side was bad) and he did not feel there was enough meat to go to a larger bolt. He talked about the possibility of drilling new holes from a different angle but I was not comfortable with that.

I have that forward bolt tightened to where the flanges just touch. I sail year round quite often. If it ever does get worse I will wait until I haul out, pull the rudder and do the drilling from a stable platform. It's hard to keep the rudder up high enough to drill it out at the dock. I had to secure the rudder with a couple of lines from below with a buddy pulling the rudder up just so I could disconnect and reconnect it. That you probably already know.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

I think Tenders approach is probably a lot better but it is a lot more involved and expensive when you consider haul out and machining. I wish my brother in law was a machinist. I don't know what the rudder post looks like on a 69 E-32, but there's really not much room to play around with on my 73 E-27.

 

[tenders]

I think Tenders approach is probably a lot better but it is a lot more involved and expensive when you consider haul out and machining. I wish my brother in law was a machinist. I don't know what the rudder post looks like on a 69 E-32, but there's really not much room to play around with on my 73 E-27.

Everything on the 32 looks just like in your picture, except maybe an eighth or a quarter inch bigger.

My boat was out of the water at the time but wouldn't have required hauling to do what I did. The rudder stock is not involved in this repair--as long as you can keep the rudder from falling out of the boat while the rudder cap is removed (ie, stick a bolt through the hole that normally secures the cap), you'd be golden.

 

[Jeff Asbury]

as long as you can keep the rudder from falling out of the boat while the rudder cap is removed (ie, stick a bolt through the hole that normally secures the cap), you'd be golden.

That's what I did, as well as lines attached to the rudder below.

 

[Mike & Dawn]

I think the issue is where the tiller fork attaches to the rudder head. i had this problem. I attached a shim about 1/8" to the rudder cap which took the play out the the tiller fork to cap joint.

 

[edwardest]

Tenders, I am *definitely* interested in a bit of shimming bronze. Just sent you a PM with my contact details.

Definitely like the idea of filling that gap a bit more before torquing down on the old bolt. Might even make a shim to hold the tiller up a bit higher too while I'm at it. I've experimented with a few quarters and it sits a little more level that way...

Cheers,
Ed