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M25XPB warning

lindaloo

Member II
I have just received a private message through this excellent website. It is yet another distressing tale of woe from someone who bought a Universal M25XPB, the engine that chews up gearboxes.

How Universal can still sell these things is beyond me. How can they make money with the warranty costs ?

I hope that this warning will come up with a google search. So that people can make an informed choice.

Stu, if you read this, can you let Catalina owners know as well.

Have a nice day !

Rob
 

Rick R.

Contributing Partner
I have just received a private message through this excellent website. It is yet another distressing tale of woe from someone who bought a Universal M25XPB, the engine that chews up gearboxes.

How Universal can still sell these things is beyond me. How can they make money with the warranty costs ?

I hope that this warning will come up with a google search. So that people can make an informed choice.

Stu, if you read this, can you let Catalina owners know as well.

Have a nice day !

Rob

What kind of message? Was it from this site, a friend, Kubota?

Please share with us what you are talking about. If you are talking about the crappy Hurth transmissions then, yes, been there-done that. I think the XPB is different from the M25XP, right?
 

lindaloo

Member II
update

The message was from a gal who searched threads in the Maintenance Forum and sent me a private message, as one can do. She has since said I can share it.

My name is Cate and I have been reading your posts under transmission problems and I was wondering if I could pick your brain.

My husband and I started cruising in May last year. Just before we left we installed a M-25XPB Universal/Westerbeke engine. We felt that the new engine would give us greater safety and reliability. The gearbox ZF10M failed after approximately 150 hours. We went through the usual checklist - our alignment, oil and morse cabling - all fine. We paid to have a new gearbox sent to us and missed cruising. Our second gearbox failed after approximately 30 hours. Back and fourth, incorrect parts sent to us and trouble shooting. Engine troubles have now dominated our time cruising. When we took off the damper plate (R&D 22B4) we found an amazing amount of wear with the teeth on the damper 50% worn away.


Are there other people who have experienced what we have experienced?

We have been told that our situation is unique and feel isolated and distressed.


I replied:

Hi Cate. Sorry to hear about your grief.
I wish I had some good news for you. I have not wasted an opportunity to post warnings on blogs and chatrooms about the M25XPB. Unfortunately you have had the same experience as me.
Why Universal still sell this junk is beyond me. The replacement gearboxes, under warranty, must eat up all the profit margin. And they lie through their teeth that NOBODY else has had any problem.
Anyway, to your problem. My gut feeling is that the flywheel on the M25XPB is too light, allowing too much torsional vibration through and the damper plate can’t deal with it, neither can the ZF10. The Kubota block may normally have a hydraulic pump bolted up, much more immune to vibration. Fine for a garden tractor. Not so great for a mechanical gearbox. Beta Marine uses a different Kubota block for their three cylinder diesel packages. That’s my pet theory anyway. How else do you explain the extreme spline wear and internal gearbox damage ? I have seen boats with shocking alignment and prop pitch WAY out and their gearboxes don’t break like ours.
Do you have room to shoehorn a ZF15 in the engine bay ? The engine would have to move up and foreward a bit. Going with a Twin Disc gearbox is the same, install the biggest one you can. I tried the small one and should have gone bigger.
Or else bite the bullet and kiss off $20k and get a Yanmar or Volvo, or even Beta gets good reviews. Which is where I am at. I am running out of years faster than dollars. There is an old saying that if a problem can be fixed by throwing money at it, it’s not really a problem.
I should just get a Yanmar and be done with it.
Do you know a lawyer who would take on a class action suit ?

So there you have the exchange. Hours to failure were virtually identical to mine.

I believe she IS going to see a lawyer and would like to hear from other disgruntled owners. (catestorey@gmail.com)

The M25XPB Kubota engine is different to the Beta 25 and Beta 30 blocks, and also different to the Westerbeke W30 block. There is something not right with it. The ZF10 is too small admittedly but still ........ Not all of these units give such poor reliability either. But enough do.
Even though the ZF10 as a replacement for the old Hurth has its own problems, even with the old M25XP, I don't think it is at fault in this case.

If this makes one other owner avoid Universal then good.

Rob
 
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Rick R.

Contributing Partner
Class Action?

As soon as I get the test results back from my Lumber Liquidators floor, I'm going to.....

Well someone should hammer these transmissions.
 

reflections

Member I
hurth trans.

had new 25 universal installed about 5 years ago. 1st ZF5 that came with engine lasted 125 hrs. Put in & paid for a new ZF10. lasted 125 hrs. also. Hurth installed another ZF10 at their expense & so far I have about 150 hrs.on it & still not slipping. Praying for good luck this season!!!!!
 

hdlEric

Member III
1987 M25X and Hurth transmission

I have just received a private message through this excellent website. It is yet another distressing tale of woe from someone who bought a Universal M25XPB, the engine that chews up gearboxes.

How Universal can still sell these things is beyond me. How can they make money with the warranty costs ?

I hope that this warning will come up with a google search. So that people can make an informed choice.

Stu, if you read this, can you let Catalina owners know as well.

Have a nice day !

Rob


I have a Hurth transmission in my E 34. Yesterday, it didn't want to go into forward from reverse, but eventually did. When I tried to put it into neutral to shut it down, it wouldn't go, and eventually we just shut the engine down and sailed for a while. Do you know anything about the transmissions? Like, how do I get this thing out of gear, and is the Hurth transmission hooked to my M25X (don't think it is an XP) one that every body is having trouble with?
Thanks Howard
 

Tom Metzger

Sustaining Partner
The 87 E-34s were built with M-25XP engines. I would disconnect the shift cable at the engine and see if the transmission shifts when you use the shift lever on the transmission. That way you will know if the problem is with the transmission or the cable.
 
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