Mainsail foot changes and other questions

[Emerald]

My original 1979 mainsail is coming to an end of life point. Three more new holes opening up and stretched out material around the tack that no tensioning of luff or foot will firm up makes me think it's time to start looking for a new main. I have come across a used main that is in truly outstanding condition -looks like it has never been used.

The overall sail area is about equal, but the "new" sail has a longer luff and shorter foot. I can purchase this sail for about half of what building a new sail of equal construction would cost me (this pleases the admiral greatly). The new sail is described as follows:

MAIN, 6.5 OZ DACRON BY BOHNDELL. 7/8" NYLON FLAT INTERNAL SLIDES WEBBED TO GROMMETS ON COVERED ROPE LUFF. LOOSE FOOTED. LEECH LINE. ROWS OF REEFS UP 4' AND 8'. TAKES 4 STANDARD BATTENS, NOT INCLUDED
It has a luff of 32' 6" and a foot of 11' 6" and a leech of 34' 3"

My original sail is about the same weight, has a bolt rope foot, not loose, and a luff of 31' 4" and a foot of 12' 3" (not sure of leech) - about the same area, just a little shorter/squatter.

My use is basically day/weekend cruising on the Chesapeake. I sail as much as possible, so I will go out when it's blowing 5-10, and it really turns out to be 2-3, and I also look forward to the spring and fall days where it blows a solid 20 and gusts up another 5 or so routinely. I'd like to possibly do some limited coastal cruising - a trip around the DELMARVA penninsual seems too hard to resist.

So, for half the cost of new, in basically new condition, and yes, price is an object, does this sound good? -- but If it's not going to work properly, I don't want a false economy that has me looking for a replacement in a few seasons.

I've attached a picture of the two sails hoisted together, and you can see in the silhouette the leech on each crossing paths fairly well. Then two pictures of the sail on it's own. Note that the luff is not attached to the mast, and the battens are out, so it's not presenting itself 100% in the pictures.

Any thoughts appreciated, and I fully realize this might get into the highly objective area and I have to make the ultimate choice etc....

Thanks to all in advance.

 

[Frank Langer]

David,
In addition to taking a close look at the sail to ensure that the quality is really as good as your initial impression, I think at the very least you will probably want to get it shortened a bit at the head. It looks to me as if it's almost at the masthead in the picture, and in a blow you may want to add more tension to the halyard which might take it even a bit higher--too high in my opinion. But I think a sail loft would be able to cut that back a bit for you without much trouble.

It also looks like you are giving up a bit of sail area on the roach--it may not be a big deal as you are using the boat mainly for cruising; but that extra foot or so on the leech would give you a bit more speed. I would discuss that with the sailmaker as well, but it would likely be too costly to add some on the leech as all the batten pockets would need to be redone as well.

Finally, I have had a loose footed sail on my current and previous boat, and quite like that, so I think that's a bonus, even though you are used to the bolt rope.

Good luck with your decision. If the budget is tight, I think it may be a good deal, unless you can find a sail with an exact fit at the same price.

Frank.

 

[Morgan Stinemetz]

Hi,
Looking at your sails, it seems that the foot is too short on the proposed replacement. When you lose sail area you lose power. Additionally, a purpose built new main for you boat will most likely have full length battens in the top two slots. Better sail shape and better power will result from that.
Any main needs a number and, I think, a logo. The logo on the existing main is way too high. Looks like it was added as an afterthought. Your main number is the same as the hull number. Also, it's a good idea to have the boat length on the sail. Mine has the Ericson logo, the number 27 below it, and then the hull number (372) below that. A sail number is rudimentary stuff, but necessary for any racing that you do.
I am a big proponent of having a main built of the weight material that will give you the biggest bang for the buck, of having the best technology you can get, and paying the price necessary to get the kind of performance that will give you the most fun out of your boat. In my opinion, sails are where you don't scrimp. Get the best you can afford, because the sails are what are going to keep you moving.
Put another way, who would you rather take out to dinner, Rosie O'Donnell or Christie Brinkley? Step up to the plate and give it your best shot.
Morgan Stinemetz

 

[Frank Langer]

I think Morgan's point about the top two battens is valid, but a good sail loft will be able to add new batten pockets to accommodate full battens in the top two. And the Ericson logo and number can be added at the same time. I had a friend who ordered the logo and numbers and he put them on himself--that worked well.

A 6.5 oz. sailcloth is a pretty generic sailcloth, and I don't see a problem with that, unless conditions there are very different from "normal", but that wasn't what David indicated in his initial post; nor is he racing, so a slight drop in speed shouldn't be a great big deal.

So I think the only real shortcoming is the leech/roach/foot being a bit short. I don't think there is an easy way to fix that, so that's where a decision is needed as to whether having the "ideal" sail is worth the cost, given the budget constraints mentioned in the initial post. I guess David may also need to add up what the cost would be of shortening the head, adding full battens at the top and adding logos and numbers (if the latter is important to him).
Decisions, decisions.....

Frank.

 

[Emerald]

I really appreciate the thoughts on this - please keep them coming. Playing with this nice triangle calculator, it looks like I loose about 3-4 square feet of sail (of course, this calculator can't account for roach and belly). Here's the link:

http://www.mathopenref.com/heronsformula.html


Is the reduction in foot length and/or area going to make any noticeable difference on weather helm? As I look at the pictures, I wonder what I pick up in the belly of this sail with the loose foot - is it comparable to what I loose on the lower part of the leech? (see overlay picture above) Just several more questions rolling around in my head

Thanks again.

 

[Lawdog]

Any sailmaker can add the full length top battens for under a few hundred dollars. The loose foot will likely give you better speed off the wind than your old main, when you loosen the outhaul and create a better draft pocket. Looking at the two sails side by side in your photos, I dont think you will even notice a difference in speed, nor should you feel any difference in weather helm, unless you fail to tighten the outhaul sufficiently. From my experience, cleaning the bottom, changing the prop from 3 to 2 blades, taking excess junk off the boat, and trimming the sails better will make a bigger difference in speed than the 2 to 3 sq feet you are losing in sail area.

Neal
Enterprise

 

[Seth]

Keep looking

This sail is very marginal on weight for your boat-6.5 oz-especially a "soft" cruising 6.5 is not going to hold up too well over time and will lose it's shape. 7-7.5 oz is what I would use for an I 31 cruising main for durability and shape holding. The corner patches look small and underbuilt as well. You will certainly want to shorten the luff a few inches to allow for stretch and by the time you spend the $ to go with longer top battens, a logo, etc, the bargain goes away.

This is just based on the photo, but it does not look like a very high quality sail. Keep looking.
S

 

[Emerald]

Hi Seth,

really appreciate your feedback. I had been concerned about weight and reinforcements also. I'm on a budget, but doing it wrong is the worst thing to do.

I picked up a second sail yesterday to try for fit etc.. This one's from an Alerion 28, and is in excellent condition, but looks like it has a season or two on it. Price went up -we're now in the low $700 ball park. It is 7 oz dacron. The description:

FULL BATTENED MAIN, GROMMETS ONLY BEHIND COVERED ROPE LUFF. 2" TACK SETBACK AND SETUP. SHELF FOOT W/ COVERED ROPE FOOT. CONTINUOUS LEECH FOOT LINE ADJUSTS AT TACK. LEECH LINE. CUNNINGHAM CRINGLE. ROW OF REEFS UP 6' 2". DUTCHMAN SYSTEM INSTALLED INCLUDES GROMMETS AND POCKETS ALONG FOOT. NO MONOFILAMENT LINE. TAKES 4 FULL LENGTH BATTENS.

This critter has a luff of 33' and a foot of 12' 5". The roach has to get cut down in the top half as it hits the backstay. The sailmaker I work with will do this (and shorten it a tad at the same time) for $75.

I'm leaning strongly towards this sail. Looks like building a new one of same construction would run about $1400. Any more thoughts from anyone?

Thanks again for the input.

 

[sleather]

NOW your talking!

Better looking sail! That 1st one looked like "wash-hung-out-to-dry"(no offence meant)! I've got a North full-batten that's over 15 years old and "still" looks great! I can't find the slip right now so I don't know the weight. Mine has backstay interference also(nature of the beast) and it's only been an issue in really light air(w/ no apparent wear)! Mine also has the "shelf", not loose-footed but the same effect.

I was going to recommend "full-battens" before, they look really sharp on a "classic" boat and I love their manners!

Another "shorter" set of reef points, perhaps?

 

[Seth]

Much better

Looks fine-I would not cut the roach down because it does not hurt anything and gives a bit more performance-you will only maybe see it hang up on the BS in the lightest of air, and then a wiggle of the backstay will clear it-in any decent air it will blow right through.

The concern (if there is one) is how tight can you get the luff-since this sail is about 6" longer than spec, and looks like it is right up at the top. The luff will stretch a bit, so this may be something to do (cheap to do). If you do decide to shorten the luff a bit, then the best way is to go ahead and trim the roach (re-fair the leech curve) to a point 3-4" below the current top of the headboard. This will leave plenty of patch material to slam the new headboard in without added reinforcing, and trim that roach just a tad in the bargain..
Hope that makes sense-let me know if not..
Looks like a much better fit-and you get what you pay for!

Good luck!

S

 

[Emerald]

Hi Seth,

thanks again. I think this is looking like a winner with a budget in mind. I am really tempted to go ahead and just fly it as is. It's really close on the head, and it may need to be cut down. The sailmaker I work with described a procedure like what you were saying for how we could cut it down very easily. I had a fair amount of halyard tension on it, so I think I might go ahead and just use it, like tomorrow even. We have a forecast for high 60's/70 and sunny. Love these oddball fall days on the Chesapeake where you get faked out about ice around the corner.

It is really good relief to hear about the ability to sail it without cutting the roach down. I was really worried that this would just beat the poor sail to death and abrade it badly. I guess in a worst case, if it does wear, it would be the material that would be trimmed of in cutting the roach back anyway.

Now, anyone have thoughts on the Dutchman system? Intriguing to think you could just drop the sail and have it flake easily virtually on it's own. I think I just have to rig my topping lift to handle the monofilament, and weave it through the sail. Time to go sailing first though

 

[Seth]

Go for it

Why not? Have some fun. Any cut down, if needed, can be done later of course. There is no issue with the roach touching the BS-as race boats are all like this and it is just not a wear point on the sail-despite concerns of those who have not used large roach mains in the past-
So, go sailing for all of us and have fun!

 

[Gary Peterson]

If you are worried about sail wear from the back stay do what I did on our previous sail boat with an extended main sail roach. Use the white split plastic genoea protectors that go on the lower part of the shrouds.
I used them on my back stay for protection. Use a tight one in the lower position and a couple of loose ones where the roach would interfere. Also helps on light wind jibes.

Gary Peterson
E381 QUIXOTIC

 

[Mike.Gritten]

I have had experience with the Dutchman sail flaking system on a Catalina 28 I used to teach on. I loved it and will order my new main sail with this system installed. It takes ALL the bother out of dropping the main, and does a great job of properly flaking the sail onto the boom, where it cannot fall off! It adds around $800 to the cost of a new main for our 35mkII so it makes your sail sound like a great deal.

 

[Randy Rutledge]

If you go the stay guard cover.

Slip the loose one that forms a roller on and wrap the ends with rigging tape and install the keeper or tight one below and wrap, this will hold the roller in place. Use a 12” piece of the loose cover as a pusher, install it below the keeper wrap this in tape and tie and tape a loop neat the top of the pusher then attach the halyard to the loop (you may need an extension on the halyard) also have a retrieval line attached to the halyard to pull the halyard and pusher back down. If you have two halyards to use have the mail up to gauge the needed location. Hoist the assembly up and pull the pusher and halyard back down and you’re set.

WARNING: Test to be sure the pusher slides down ok before it gets out of reach,

 

[Emerald]

Just wanted to report back that I went on that sail, and did a tack or two for everyone who's on the hard already.

This 2nd sail is great! I have a new boat. It seems hard to believe as I write this, but I would say I consistently point 5 degrees higher. I'm the second owner, and have become good friends with the original owner's son. He was with me for the sail, and agreed we were really sailing incredibly better. He commented it was like his memories from 20 years ago for the way she felt when he took the helm.

The shelf foot is pretty cool. We were in a steady 10 knots or so, and it was pretty neat when we eased the outhaul and ran with it.

The roach isn't an issue at all, and it looks like I'm OK on getting proper luff tension. I think I will go ahead and install a backstay protector just to be sure.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback. Feel like every reply has helped me come to a good decision here. Now, if only the weather wasn't forecast to drop to the 20's on Friday night. Hopefully a couple more sails before haul out

 

[sleather]

A Special Thanksgiving!

You got a jumpstart on the Holiday! I bet your "Thankfull" that's over and done with!
I thought that looked like a "keeper"

ENJOY! :clap:

 

[Randy Rutledge]

I love a story with a happy ending.