O-34: Getting the Overlap Juuuust Right

[Loren Beach]

Getting more serious about a new genny to replace the '95 dacron 135% furler.

Had a chat with the local North rep yesterday. He can quote price but could not comment on just how much % would be minimally enough for my boat. The good news is that our boat is very easily driven.

My goal is a lighter-weight sail that will take a decent shape on 5 to 8 kt days and have good pointing and drive in 10 to 14 kt true.
Stated additional goal is to bring the % down to maybe 120 or 125. A modern composite material will reduce the weight aloft a lot, as well.

We do sail in 20 to 24 kt true once a while, but by then we've rolled in some sail, too.

It's interesting in this centralized sailing production age that we live in that he wants me to sort of place an order, at least on paper, so their main office can generate a specific sail design.
While the North guy has a nice facility that can do in-house repairs and mods, his bidding expertise seems to only be about one click further up than that of my friend that has been the local Lee Sails rep for 20 years.
He does admit that North, in their effort to satisfy every niche of the market, has a near-bewildering array of cloth and construction choices these days. The actual construction is done at a centralized North Sails facility in SE Asia.

I left there a bit puzzled. No, not upset or agitated, just uncertain...

The paper quote for a nominal 130%, in their "Marathon series 300" (about 383 sq ft) is $3956. with current winter discount down to $3362.

The lack of decisiveness on his part might mean that he's more used to dealing with sailors with both more money and more expertise right up front.

Anyone with a 34 or a 911S having a comment about a good real-world compromise for overlap, please do chime in!

I should note that pursuing a rating break is NOT part of this calculation.

Regards,
Loren

 

[Carefree Sailor]

Minney's Yacht Surplus

Hi Loren,

Although you may have decided on a new sail, you might want to consider sails from Minney's Yacht Surplus:

http://www.minneysyachtsurplus.com/

Although I haven't bought from Minney's, I've heard stories of excellent values. Recently there was a story of someone from the UK (I believe) who bought a rather large, excellent condition, high tech sail for a fraction of the cost at Minney's. A plane trip down the coast to Costa Mesa might result in a considerable saving.

 

[Emerald]

I had a great experience with my local Quantum loft this past fall building a new Yankee. They also build the sails at a central loft, but it's here in the US It can't hurt to give them a shout. No affiliation, just a really good experience.

http://www.quantumsails.com/

 

[CTOlsen]

Try Doyle!

I had my local Doyle loft (formerly Quantum, and Sobstad) give me an offer for a roller furling 140% and main out of dacron when I bought Loki in 2009. I have known the sailmaker for several years, and was quoted 5K for the main and 140%. In addition, he through in a main cover! The sails were measured locally, keeping the headsail foot as low as possible to the deck, and arrived about 7 weeks after being ordered. The sails are good Doyle cruising sails, and have held their shape well. Highly recommend Doyle. Let me know if you want a quote from him locally, possibly using Loki for dimensions.

 

[Randy Rutledge]

Loren
I know Joe is across the country but Joe Waters of waters sails is very knowledgeable and specializes in performance sails. Not a big bucks advertiser his sales are word of mouth and if you sail against them you will want them. Might be farther than you want to deal but he will give correct answers after he interrogates you finding out sailing conditions, boat and crew setup and what you are looking for.


http://www.waterssails.net/

 

[davisr]

Hey Randy,

This is the second time in two days that you've mentioned Waters Sails in Lexington/Columbia South Carolina. On this thread and on the other thread (which I include below), several people have given more specifics in terms of the type of sailcloth used and the price asked by different sailmakers. Since the Waters Sails website does not give many specifics, would you mind providing more information? It would be helpful for everyone, especially since there is not a lot of information out there on the web (at least that I could find) about Waters Sails.

http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/showthread.php?9554-New-Sails-Planning-Mack

Thanks,
Roscoe

 

[Loren Beach]

Good input for alternatives for shopping and pricing, and thanks to all.
Still hoping for some more input on the effect of overlap.

Loren

 

[Grizz]

Overlap % Guestimate

Based upon the replies, and the range of options contained within, it's apparent that there are a zillion options to choose from, which is daunting. But it appears you have already refined your focus to a vary narrow window, which helps. You have a stated interest in shrinking your overlap to a minimum of 120%, with an indeterminate +/- of this overlap = to 'x'. Wind range, speed, sail material, weight and pointing ability will all fall inline from this stated goal of a headsail that is somewhere around the 120% size, which I'd say is between a #3 and a #2. Keep talking to your sailmakers (plural) with your stated intentions, providing them input as to how you want to use your boat. Then make your decision, always remembering that it's only money!

This won't help a bit, but is added for reference: I will be adding a new #1 to the inventory this year, built locally at the UK loft of the same 3DL material used to build the new main last summer.

It'll hurt the bank account, but these pains will off-set the current 6-second a mile hit that's incurred with the blown out #2 that's serving as the only headsail in inventory. The number of times we've needed a #1 instead of the #2 is " more often than not".

Please add this 2¢ to my tab, to be paid in full at a later date...

 

[e38 owner]

Not knowing much about the 34 I can only reply in a general format of questions to ask.
As headsails get smaller somewhere in the 120 range I have been told that depending on the spreaders and track position they may not point as well untill they are small enough that the spreaders are no longer an issue and sheeted inboard. I am sure Seth knows at what point that is. On our 38 I find a 125 the perfect sail for cruising. I had a Hobie 33. The 105 was perfect sheeted inboard I could hold my own upwind in anything over about 8 knots. I have also been told that wave height makes a significant difference. fwiw

 

[Slick470]

as e38 owner mentioned, someone like Seth will probably do a better job explaining the overlap question. Personally I think it comes down to how you use the boat and the local conditions. For the Chesapeake bay and our boat we use a 155% #1 95% of the time due to the prevalent light winds. With the boat having a masthead rig it really seems to need the extra sail area in the light stuff. For the other 5% of the time we use a 100% #3. This is mainly due to not having anything in between. Someday a good #2 might be nice to have. Our furler is currently in the basement so we don't have to pick a sail and stick with it.

 

[MartaCrichlow]

New Sails

I replaced the sails on our Ericson 35-2 with sails that I put together with kits fro Sailrite. Couldn't be happier. Granted, it was a lot of work, but the kits from Sailrite were designed specifically from original specifications and with input from us with specifics that we wanted, eg: higher foot and deck sweep, Eric at Sailrite designed the kits for us. It took a winter to construct (because I was somewhat a beginner), but with specific instructions included with the kits the sails went together very well and perform excellent. The kits are all precut, labeled, with all the necessary supplies and fittings. They ended up at about half the price of completed sails and with the learning curve I am ready to build more sails.

 

[Loren Beach]

I replaced the sails on our Ericson 35-2 with sails that I put together with kits fro Sailrite. Couldn't be happier. Granted, it was a lot of work, but the kits from Sailrite were designed specifically from original specifications and with input from us with specifics that we wanted, eg: higher foot and deck sweep, Eric at Sailrite designed the kits for us. It took a winter to construct (because I was somewhat a beginner), but with specific instructions included with the kits the sails went together very well and perform excellent. The kits are all precut, labeled, with all the necessary supplies and fittings. They ended up at about half the price of completed sails and with the learning curve I am ready to build more sails.

While I have no plans to "sew my own", this is about the third time over the years that someone has commented favorably about their Sailrite solution. Usually they seem especially pleased with the knowledge gained and the new abilities learned.
Thanks for bringing up that alternative.
Regards,
Loren

 

[Grizz]

Another Sailrite perspective

Make this "about the 4th" good Sailrite review you've heard over the years, this one pertaining to the results from the A-sail built last spring. I'd do it again, only this time with more time allotted, as finishing the kite 4 days before the start is waaaay too tight of a schedule. There's a chance that a 1.5 oz. A-sail is possible this year, a bit smaller and narrower in the shoulders, enabling us to fly a kite into the mid-20's, without the impending fear of blow-up we had with the .75 oz. At least that's the thought on January 7th!

Having a dedicated space or room with a large horizontal surface to sew on is important, a tolerant wife is critical, patience is a given. Following the directions helps (a lot!) and keeping the Sailrite phone # handy for those "clarification calls" is also important.

I know this diverges about 180° from your original upwind overlap question. Sorry. Hope we return back on point soon. Take care.

 

[Randy Rutledge]

Roscoe
You are right Joe doesn’t have a fancy web site. He has a lot of experience and is the son of a longtime competitive sailor. He grew up racing small boats and to start his business he made Catalina 22 sails and raced them killing the competition. His goal to make them mad enough they would buy his sails then he trained the new sail owners to sail them to the max so they could show the performance of the sails and spread the word.
Fabrics, he uses the best for your boat and purpose. He believes in building the best sail for the purpose without going over needed expense. My 105 for my Mirage 236 we discussed building a 4 batten Kevlar sail. He thought how I had stated Ce Ce was a tough crew member and called and asked if I ever fly a 110 instead of the 155 in light air when it is just Ce Ce and me on the boat, after I told him I never reduce sail for crew only weather, he changed to a heavier but less costly material and saved me a few hundred. He called me for this change after I had placed the order.
He will make cruising sails but his specialty is performance. I went to his loft and spent a few hours going over his mirage 236 and taking measurements and comparing setup of his boats to mine and discussing sail design and sail trim.
When he races he is like a machine, no bull, no slacking and 100% head in the game. When he makes sail order decisions he is the same.
If you call him on your dime have a full roll, he likes to talk and find out about you and your sailing.

 

[Seth]

Happy New Year ALL

Hi Loren,

I realize the discussion was not about what sailmaker to choose-you are very aware of all of the options and players in the biz, so I am not going to say anything about that.

Your question is really about what would be the optimal size for your new headsail.

E38 chimed in with exactly the right answer-it was based on your stated criteria and that you don't want to settle for less than optimal pointing. The problem with sails in the 135-110 range is that they have wider sheeting angles than smaller or larger sails-as noted correctly by E38.

Based on your criteria, I would go for the largest non-overlapping sail you can build; meaning that when it is sheeted in for upwind sailing, the leech is just kissing the front of the spreaders. This could be anywhere between 98 and 105% depending on the geometry of the rig dimensions, rake and pre-bend. It will be easy enough to determine by either working with the sailplan or by taking real measurements and having the sailmaker scale them up on paper (or with a sail design software program).

This will achieve the lowest possible sheeting angle without interference from the spreaders, and leave enough adjustment on the tracks for depowering at the top range of the sail (leads aft of optimal) and more importantly (since you are using a small sail as an all-purpose tool) room for pulling the lead forward to power the sail up at the bottom range.

The key with this approach is to select a fabric (and construction type) which is light enough to fly well in lighter air and beefy enough to survive in the high 20's-low 30's wind speed. It can be done; most modern boats do not use overlapping sails and have a limited # of headsail sizes to choose from; the Sydney 38 I often sail on has 2 #1 headsails-both are about the same size (+/- 100%), but constructed of very different fabrics and have very different shapes-still we have a large overlap of ranges for the 2 sails; both sails must live in the light patches, and hang on into breezy conditions.

So, the approach is the biggest sail which can fit inside the fore-triangle, and it will be between about 98-105%. Scale it out based on proper measurements, and the sail designer can tell you exactly where it will sheet on your track.

Sails in the 106% (approximately) to 135% will for sure have wider sheeting angles (it gets narrower again as you move aft and the boat becomes skinnier towards the stern), so this is my suggestion.

Given how easily your boat is driven, and if you have a cruising A-sail (ideally a Code O on a furler!), you will not see a big performance gap between these 2 sails. Keep in mind that for long passages, the trend on modern boats without overlapping sails has been to use a Code O for light air upwind sailing-what you lose in pointing (due to wide sheeting angles) is more than made up for by the higher speed produced by the big, light sail. Once you get into 10-12 knots, you can use the headsail sheeted in and get excellent VMG!

Happy sailing!

S

 

[Loren Beach]

The Sheet Goes ... Here, or Here...

Seth and all you others, I really do appreciate the input.

It might be helpful to put up a picture of our boat to show our sheeting limitations. We do have the factory-optional forward track sections, and I know that they are used with a sail about about 95% to 100% or so. Unlike a boat with a 100% jib with battens to maintain some drive up high, we have a Harken furler. I suspect that this requires a rather modest leach up high on a narrow jib. (?)

In the photo you can see that there's a gap between the end of the main (rear) track and rear of the forward track. For reference, the shrouds are in line with the mast, which is not as apparent as it might be from the camera angle.

So, while it seems easy to get a good sheeting angle for a genoa down to about 120%, I wonder if there's a sort of middle size where the sheeting will not be really right. Perhaps that's all allowed for in the sail design and clew placement.
BTW, per our brochure, the J = 13'2" and our E = 12'10", if that helps.

Thanks again,
Loren

 

[Seth]

stay with the non-overlapping jib

Loren,
Your best set up is the biggest non-overlapping jib you can fit, but have the new (and very cool) roller battens fitted. Contact me off line to chat further if you like!
Regards,
S

 

[Seth]

Track

The track you have will be great for something in the 100% range. As long as the clew height/leech length is correct you should have plenty of fore and aft adjustment. If you go with a larger overlap you will definitely sacrifice some height as the sail will have to deal with the spreaders and the sheeting angle will be wider. True, you could have a very hollow leech and make larger LP sail fit, but the sail will have a weak leech and not perform as well. You would gain some LP, but lose sail area due to the hollow leech. The nice thing is that you can build the new sail with a straight leech, which would be supported by furling battens. A good 100% will be better all around than shoe horning a 100% with a hollow leech....Call me if you need to!

S

 

[Matey]

To overlap : or not to overlap

Seth and all you others, I really do appreciate the input.

It might be helpful to put up a picture of our boat to show our sheeting limitations. We do have the factory-optional forward track sections, and I know that they are used with a sail about about 95% to 100% or so. Unlike a boat with a 100% jib with battens to maintain some drive up high, we have a Harken furler. I suspect that this requires a rather modest leach up high on a narrow jib. (?)

In the photo you can see that there's a gap between the end of the main (rear) track and rear of the forward track. For reference, the shrouds are in line with the mast, which is not as apparent as it might be from the camera angle.

So, while it seems easy to get a good sheeting angle for a genoa down to about 120%, I wonder if there's a sort of middle size where the sheeting will not be really right. Perhaps that's all allowed for in the sail design and clew placement.
BTW, per our brochure, the J = 13'2" and our E = 12'10", if that helps.

Thanks again,
Loren

Loren,

While I also am of no help specific to your O34 .. I went through the same decision(s) when I had a new sail built a few months ago for my 32. I decided on 7.62 oz. cross-cut Dacron with vertical battens that came out to 102% and no overlap. It's on a Harken mkIV furler. The boat powers up more like a 155 I had than the 100 % hi-cut I'm replacing. I had to add inboard sheeting, but I built the sail I wanted, then put track where it needed to be. The sailmaker, Seth and my rigger all gave me the same input there. You look like you might be in good shape with the track marked 30". I had the foot built to cabin top height, so I'll be lowering a couple lifeline stanchions to avoid having to skirt the sail. Another decision / choice
It sounds like you have allot of sailing connections, you might check with racing community on what they're building. They spend a ton on R & D and although sail materials may differ, they know how to size and sheet sails for the best performance.
As for lofts, I only dealt with ones that would build a custom sail from detailed on board measurements. But my boat is in SF, so that's easy. I got a similar feeling from North, and my Son's Boss is sponsored by them so I had an in. My project is not sexy enough. As Seth said, you know all the players building sails. Quantum built mine. We had a couple frank conversations on what I needed and I was assured they would custom build the largest non-overlapping sail from on the boat measurements plugged into their CAD, out of a material they went over in detail with me in choosing. I did have to commit before all the measuring took place though. They delivered on all fronts.
I am a performance cruiser and do some distance and full crew PHRF racing on the Bay, with plans for offshore work this year. We'll see if I got it right.

Regards, Greg