Rebedding Fixed Ports

[Rocinante33]

With much difficulty, I removed my starboard aft fixed port. Yes, the factory appears to have used that, "Satan's Glue," 3M 5200. It was hell getting it out, and removing all that crud from the channel was no fun, either. I had to soak it with acetone squirted on with a disposable transfer pipettes (something like an eye dropper). Only then could I scrape it out, followed by using a brass wire wheel on my drill for clean up. Then I tested the port by putting it on a flat surface and pouring some water onto it. No water leaked through, so I though there was a good chance that the gasket holding the glass in the frame was OK. Butyl tape around the rim, then re-install. No good! It still leaks.

So I have to pull it back apart and this time, dis-assemble the outer frame (looks like 3 pieces?) and remove the glass and re bed it, too. The glass does have a formed gasket around it, correct? If so, can I get some new gasket from an auto glass shop or is it residential type stuff? Anybody found a source for that gasket?

BTW, my window looks just like Marks does on post #40 of this thread which has a lot of good info;
http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoex...acement-windows-research/page3&highlight=Port

I wsh I could replace my ports as those in that post have, but I would really just rather get it fixed for now.

 

[Rocinante33]

Rebedding

That was "rebedding ", but spell check thought it was smarter than me and changed it.

 

[Sven]

Could it be the butyl ?

I normally swear by Mainsail's recommendations but after having rebedded one NFM opening porthole 3 times with the black butyl and still having it leak I'm beginning to wonder if there is something that keeps it from becoming water tight.

We haven't given up yet but the frustration is wearing on us



-Sven

 

[Loren Beach]

Just a guess...

My best guess is that no matter what kind of sealant you use, the mating part surfaces have to be close enough with enough width of mating surface for the sealant to get a good grip on both sides. When the port is removed it might be best to carefully put a flat edge across the opening in all directions and see if the mating surface all around is actually true and in-line.

LB

 

[u079721]

I had the devil of a time trying to get one of my fixed ports to not leak. Then the second time I removed it I noticed that the yard had cut the cut-out a bit too large, and there really wasn't enough overlap of the flange in one corner for the caulk to hold to. In my case I built up that corner with some Marine-Tex I had lying around, but plain old glass would work too. Then I tried reinstalling and it held. This could especially be an issue if you were using butyl tape, which really needs good even pressure. Which is why, even though lots of folks here love butyl tape, I tend to stick with caulk as it seems to do a better job with uneven surfaces.

 

[mherrcat]

IIRC the NFM ports are through bolted? Maybe water is getting in that way? I do know that, at least on my boat, the cabin sides where the ports install are not flat; I was a little concerned when installing my new ports that the space at the front and back of each port was going to be greater than in the middle, but they seem to be sealed pretty well and haven't leaked yet. Maine Sail did mention in his write-up on butyl that if any silicone had been used previously the cabin surface should be cleaned very well to insure the butyl would adhere; even going so far as to fine sand the surface. I wet sanded mine with mineral spirits then wiped clean with lacquer thinner.

 

[Rocinante33]

Sven,

I feel your frustration. I'm not sure I have the same issue as you do, though. With your new windows you must be sure that the mating surfaces are truly the same shape & curvature (or better yet, flatness). Mine has be there not leaking for years, though, so I am reasonably sure it has a similar degree of flatness or curve. Maybe it needed another thickness of the butyl tape. That is a possibility.

Loren,

I will check it with a straightedge next time I take it apart.

Steve,

I think there is about 1/2" of overlap all the way around it, but again something I wil investigate further.

I still wonder about the other gasket which seals the glass pane into the frame, though. Thanks for the great input!

 

[mherrcat]

Catalina Direct used to sell the gasket for the original windows as the old Catalinas used the same ones. It is a standard size glazing strip but you need to get the right depth; I found the manufacturer once but don't have the name with me right now. For some reason on my original windows the inside lip of the glazing was cut off. Don't know why that was unless it was a fitment issue.

 

[Guy Stevens]

Sika 295 and 109 Primer

My recommendation is to make sure that you have a sufficiently wide mating surface, because nothing can make up for that. If you do, then I would use Sika 295 UV and their 109 primer. (You have to use the primer on the acrylic!)

The lenses can be through fastened or can be attached using only the 295uv and the primer. Personally I like to through fasten them, but it is paranoia on my part. Large High Speed Ferries have their acrylic windows attached with only the 295uv and show no signs of them becoming detached.

The trick is that you have to have a space between the lenses. This space can be created with either a block that remains after the lens is bedded, or one that is temporary and removed after the initial bedding but before tooling. I recommend the removal of the block on small boats, as finding the correct blocks to leave in the joint in small amounts seems difficult.

http://usa.sika.com/dms/getdocument...04-272d0a7ea203/ipd-pds-sikaflex295 UV-us.pdf

http://usa.sika.com/dms/getdocument...17458/Bonding and Sealing Plastic Windows.pdf

We have done several boats this way and have had excellent results. I can't recommend this method enough.

Guy

 

[Rocinante33]

Catalina Direct used to sell the gasket for the original windows as the old Catalinas used the same ones. It is a standard size glazing strip but you need to get the right depth; I found the manufacturer once but don't have the name with me right now. For some reason on my original windows the inside lip of the glazing was cut off. Don't know why that was unless it was a fitment issue.

Thanks, Mark. Good to know that is an option.

 

[Rocinante33]

My recommendation is to make sure that you have a sufficiently wide mating surface, because nothing can make up for that. If you do, then I would use Sika 295 UV and their 109 primer. (You have to use the primer on the acrylic!)

The lenses can be through fastened or can be attached using only the 295uv and the primer. Personally I like to through fasten them, but it is paranoia on my part. Large High Speed Ferries have their acrylic windows attached with only the 295uv and show no signs of them becoming detached.

The trick is that you have to have a space between the lenses. This space can be created with either a block that remains after the lens is bedded, or one that is temporary and removed after the initial bedding but before tooling. I recommend the removal of the block on small boats, as finding the correct blocks to leave in the joint in small amounts seems difficult.

http://usa.sika.com/dms/getdocument...04-272d0a7ea203/ipd-pds-sikaflex295 UV-us.pdf

http://usa.sika.com/dms/getdocument...17458/Bonding and Sealing Plastic Windows.pdf

We have done several boats this way and have had excellent results. I can't recommend this method enough.

Guy

Guy,

I am talking about the Ericson trademark trapezoidal, non-opening ports which have glass lenses. Maybe Sven's response is about acryllic, double layer lenses, as he has installed NFM ports which may be acrylic, but mine are not that. I think mine are single layer glass, also, not double layer. I'm just trying to get these old, original ports to seal.

 

[clp]

Keith, I'm in the process of doing my windows right now, and like you, I wanted to use what I've got. I figured that Ericson liked them, they have not leaked in 39 years, so I'm going the same route. With the decrepit window glazing in hand, (or at least the remnants of the corpse), off to the window shop I go. The first one that I found in the Yellow Pages, (as hard as it is to believe, some printed literature still exists), into the shop I go. I DID have a pitiful look on my face, kind of weepy-eyed and all. But the secretary walked back into the warehouse, came right back with about 20 feet of the stuff, and just gave it to me, no charge. I'm not sure whether it was utter sympathy, or just because I'm such a good looking devil, but the price was right. For the exception that this stuff was a little more clear in color, as apposed to the gray I had, I liked it better. And it worked perfectly. Upon inquiry, she said the stuff was common as dirt, they throw away more than that every day. So much for the handsome thing...
I sealed the window in with closed cell foam tape. The factory manual recommended it, and the high pressure hose confirmed it. I could have done the whole window in about ten minutes, stone drunk, blindfolded, with a coat hanger, in a hurricane. In fact, that's exactly what I did.
A little exaggeration mind you, but it really was a cake walk.
Some time will tell, if it all works "long term"..

 

[steven]

after several years of fighting window leaks on my E35-2, including re-bedding, cleaning, re-re-bedding, endlessly, I had the (glass) trapazoidals "professionally" pulled, cleaned and rebedded. Wrote a big check. Nevertheless, water is still coming in two of them - one port and one starb. Professional says it's not his fault - says water is getting in somewhere else - maybe the handrails - and then working it's way to the windows.

Is that a possibility or red herring?

--Steve

 

[Sven]

Is that a possibility or red herring?

I wouldn't completely rule it out. I've considered that possibility for the one tri-bedded porthole that still leaks. When we bed we really use a lot of butyl so it oozes out everywhere so I can't imagine any voids after doing it three times ... but



-Sven

 

[clp]

I heard from Randy Rutledge on here, (sorry to drag you into this man), but he said that the handrails will most certainly cause you to think the windows are leaking. As I understand, the water runs between the coachroof, and the liner, and then seep through the windows at that point, where it is not sealed, and come inside the boat. When I stopped and thought about it, it makes perfect sense.

 

[Rocinante33]

I could have done the whole window in about ten minutes, stone drunk, blindfolded, with a coat hanger, in a hurricane. In fact, that's exactly what I did.
A little exaggeration mind you, but it really was a cake walk.
Some time will tell, if it all works "long term"..

CLP,

Sounds good. I especially like your installation technique and I want to try it, though I may have a tough time scaring up a hurricane!

When you say it was the first window shop you walked into, you mean an auto window shop, right? Or was it a residential glass place?

 

[Rocinante33]

Is that a possibility or red herring?

--Steve

Steve,

I does sound possible, but I think by searching you can find evidence if that is the case. If you un-zip your head liners above the windows are there any evidences? On mine, if you trickle a hose along the bottom edge of the glass, you can see it running in at the bottom inside of the glass, so mine is definitely the port leaking.

If there is no evidence but you still suspect it is leaking in from above, can you sprinkle some cornstarch in the headliner below the rails & then do a hose test? Leaks will show a trail in the cornstarch powder.

 

[clp]

Kieth, I suppose that I would call it commercial glass. They didn't strike me as industrial, or residential, and certainly not auto. This glazing, or trim, whatever it's technical name is, strikes me as something that would go on a shower door. It is the piece that actually goes around the glass itself. And I didn't use any sealer on it at all. Just cleaned it up, and a light layer of dish soap for a little lube, and it went together like a champ.
The P.B. Blaster loosened the screws very well. Cleaning the filthy things up took the most time, but I found that a small brass wire brush, chucked up in my old wore out drill motor did a great job of it..

 

[japerra]

I had the devil of a time trying to get one of my fixed ports to not leak. Then the second time I removed it I noticed that the yard had cut the cut-out a bit too large, and there really wasn't enough overlap of the flange in one corner for the caulk to hold to. In my case I built up that corner with some Marine-Tex I had lying around, but plain old glass would work too. Then I tried reinstalling and it held. This could especially be an issue if you were using butyl tape, which really needs good even pressure. Which is why, even though lots of folks here love butyl tape, I tend to stick with caulk as it seems to do a better job with uneven surfaces.

Hi Steve,
I recently removed my ports and see the same issue. In two places the frame has a mere 1/8" of overlap. I was thinking of building this up with epoxy but will look into Marine-Tex.
James

 

[Tom Metzger]

I just did this job on my '87 E-34. I had the same situation with a cutout much longer than the portlight. On advice from the local fiberglass pro I decided not to try to fill in the void with epoxy. He pointed out two things to consider:

1) The interior teak is right up against the fiberglass so the epoxy will just be adhered on the cutout edge. He said anything I add will probably break up when the boat works in a seaway.

2) Since the glop (not 5200 on my boat) lasted 25 years the first time why not just fill it up with glop for another twenty five years? I expect to get my just reward before then.

I used LOTS of 3M 4000UV which did the trick. Before placing the glopped up portlight I wet the edge of the cutout with the glop to insure good contact. It hasn't leaked for over a month. :nerd: