Recommendation for Autopilots

[our38]

Autopilots

rwthomas,

I sure do trust you - you own an E38. I was just tossing out an idea that has worked in other cases. I also toyed with adding a RAM below deck. The added cost to an install was enourmus, parts and largely yard charges/labor. My final solution moved above deck using hydraulics made for full sea exposure and easy access to all moving parts.

Brian

Brian, it would be nice to have a couple close-up pics of your autopilot setup. Not sure how soon I'll be able to start on an autopilot project, but it would be nice to see some installations on Ericsons somewhat similar to my E38. Perhaps I can get Rob to take a couple close up pics of his belowdecks installation as well. It may be quite difficult for Rob to take pictures of his though, as I have discovered there is very limited space, AND if he has reinstalled his water heater, then there will be even less space.

Brian, as an aside, did you make it down to Monterey? I looked around about a week ago, and didn't see Redsky anywhere. Did you catch any of those albacore that everyone is talking about?

 

[Loren Beach]

Speaking of taking a picture inside a compartment...
I have had good luck with a two-step process. First I put my "trouble light" inside and point it towards the target portion. Next I hold the digi camera inside and take a whole bunch of pics in parts of the general direction. The reason for the extra light source is to give the auto-focus something to home in on.

Then I load the pix onto a laptop computer and select the good ones.
This works well to plan on how to proceed and to record the before n after.

Often these tight areas of the boat are too 'close' to allow easy use of the camera once I get a shoulder and one arm inside!


LB

 

[brianb00]

Brian, it would be nice to have a couple close-up pics of your autopilot setup. Not sure how soon I'll be able to start on an autopilot project, but it would be nice to see some installations on Ericsons somewhat similar to my E38. Perhaps I can get Rob to take a couple close up pics of his belowdecks installation as well. It may be quite difficult for Rob to take pictures of his though, as I have discovered there is very limited space, AND if he has reinstalled his water heater, then there will be even less space.

Brian, as an aside, did you make it down to Monterey? I looked around about a week ago, and didn't see Redsky anywhere. Did you catch any of those albacore that


everyone is talking about?

Hi, I have attached a photo but I don't have an E38, I have O34 with a tiller, so it seems on the E38 anything above deck would be tough. The photo is Ver 0.2 of my install. At this point the design includes an RM X5 controller and a controller of my own design. I can switch between them, both are gyro based. Both have been race/cruise proven along with the hydraulic external unit shown in a race and return cruise to Hawaii....but I won't bore you with that. A little video of full install: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmhvT0zX1Nw&feature=relmfu.

I never made it to Monterrey. I did however catch 3 Mahi and one Albacore on my recent solo return trip from Hawaii. The Albacore were running just a 100 miles offshore. Very tasty fish.

But enough about my summer vacation.
Brian

 

[Loren Beach]

Tillers....

Apropos of whatever....
I was out for an evening sail last week on Jim's lovely E-38/200. Goin' to weather like blazes in a stiff breeze.
It sails so easily that I really wish it had been offered with a tiller option.
(Some boats require a wheel to cover their handling characteristics, not so the Ericsons!)

Brian, I see that you added foot cleats on the front of each seat. Do they get in the way for sitting? Do you sit up between the winches and drive with the extension often?

And, you labeled the picture as an Express 34. Sure looks like my Olson. (?)

Loren

 

[brianb00]

Express 34 - going dilusional

Apropos of whatever....
I was out for an evening sail last week on Jim's lovely E-38/200. Goin' to weather like blazes in a stiff breeze.
It sails so easily that I really wish it had been offered with a tiller option.
(Some boats require a wheel to cover their handling characteristics, not so the Ericsons!)

Brian, I see that you added foot cleats on the front of each seat. Do they get in the way for sitting? Do you sit up between the winches and drive with the extension often?

>> Lorent, I have 2 types of foot cleats, one is a large rounded redwood block on starboard, one much smaller on port. The port cleat is not a seating issue. The starboard cleat is a bit annoying to some, but I don't seem to mind it as I have rounded it well. The reason for the assymetry is the races to Hawaii are normally mostly on Starboard tack during the tight reaching phase. In that mode I and crew sit up between the winches with a tiller externsion. I have to admit my cockpit is not the most comfortable set up for a day sail with friends as there are several optimizations for racing, and single handing, that tend to poke people if they are just sitting and eating/drinking. That large cleat also is good for resting the days catch.

And, you labeled the picture as an Express 34. Sure looks like my Olson. (?)

>>I did ??? it is an Olson 34 and I don't know why I did that ? At least it says Olson 34 on the main sail !

Loren

>> Loren, I have 2 types of foot cleats, one is a large rounded redwood block on starboard, one much smaller on port. The port cleat is not a seating issue. The starboard cleat is a bit annoying to some, but I don't seem to mind it as I have rounded it well. The reason for the assymetry is the races to Hawaii are normally mostly on Starboard tack during the tight reaching phase. In that mode I and crew sit up between the winches with a tiller externsion. I have to admit my cockpit is not the most comfortable set up for a day sail with friends as there are several optimizations for racing, and single handing, that tend to poke people if they are just sitting and eating/drinking. That large cleat also is good for resting the days catch.

And, you labeled the picture as an Express 34. Sure looks like my Olson. (?)

>>I did ??? it is an Olson 34 and I don't know why I did that ? At least it says Olson 34 on the main sail ! I better go check my PHRF cert !

Loren[/QUOTE]

 

[rwthomas1]

rwthomas,

I sure do trust you - you own an E38. I was just tossing out an idea that has worked in other cases. I also toyed with adding a RAM below deck. The added cost to an install was enourmus, parts and largely yard charges/labor. My final solution moved above deck using hydraulics made for full sea exposure and easy access to all moving parts.

Brian

Don't take my response as "in your face" or anything like that. I wish there was an easier solution in my case. I like your solution, if it works likely it will be copied. E38's are a pain in the rump, period. RT

 

[Martin King]

E38's are a pain in the rump, period. RT

Hey, at least 38's have an inboard rudder. I'd like a below decks autopilot for my 31. How do you rig that on a boat
with an outboard rudder, and a quadrant that lives in a small compartment that regularly gets doused with saltwater?

Martin

 

[Loren Beach]

Don't take my response as "in your face" or anything like that. I wish there was an easier solution in my case. I like your solution, if it works likely it will be copied. E38's are a pain in the rump, period. RT

We could trade boats, straight across, if that would ease your pain...


Loren

 

[brianb00]

Hey, at least 38's have an inboard rudder. I'd like a below decks autopilot for my 31. How do you rig that on a boat
with an outboard rudder, and a quadrant that lives in a small compartment that regularly gets doused with saltwater?

Martin

The solution for that is to use a hydraulic RAM to drive the ocean exposed quadrant and run the hydraulic lines back into a dry area to locate the pump. Consider using a Teleflex or UFlex ram that are made for outboard motors, they are designed to live in the elements. Also, LSC in Germany may also have a similar product. Then you choose a pump from one of several manufacturers, (Teleflex, Raymarine, Octopus, Furuno.....). Another approach I have seen was to drive a Teleflex throttle control cable with an ST2000 tiller pilot. The tiller pilot was located below deck and the throttle cable was run into the exposed area of the rudder. You could take the same approach with an RM X5 or ST4000 tiller pilot. This worked well for a boat with outboard rudder and a fairly long keel.

Brian

 

[Loren Beach]

One factor to bear in mind is that the amount of raw force on the control arm increases geometrically as you shorten that arm. I recall instructions on the tiller pilot on our prior boat to put the tiller-mounted lock-on pin at 18" from the rudder pivot point. No further away recommended, and (IIRC) No Closer than that. Of course those particular smaller drive motors had limited torque available.

It looks like putting a hydraulic ram on an arm that's as close as the ones I have seen in some other threads requires a very (!) strong arm or other attachment to the quadrant. Forces are proportionately high...

Wish we had a below decks drive, and I could probably design and fab up a mounting for the quadrant, but the money! Yikes.


Loren

 

[Martin King]

The solution for that is to use a hydraulic RAM to drive the ocean exposed quadrant and run the hydraulic lines back into a dry area to locate the pump. Consider using a Teleflex or UFlex ram that are made for outboard motors, they are designed to live in the elements. Also, LSC in Germany may also have a similar product. Then you choose a pump from one of several manufacturers, (Teleflex, Raymarine, Octopus, Furuno.....). Another approach I have seen was to drive a Teleflex throttle control cable with an ST2000 tiller pilot. The tiller pilot was located below deck and the throttle cable was run into the exposed area of the rudder. You could take the same approach with an RM X5 or ST4000 tiller pilot. This worked well for a boat with outboard rudder and a fairly long keel.

I wish it was that easy. In the 31's case, the quadrant box is simply too small to mount a ram. Even if you could, there is no way to do it without putting holes in it which I'm not about to do. That box is the only thing keeping the water out and putting holes in it is just asking for trouble. Running a cable out the transom to the rudder would look ugly and defeat the point of below deck systems in that I don't want to see it. On my particular boat, I'm fortunate in that it was ordered with a pedestal that has a take off sprocket and enough room (barely) to mount a chain drive.

 

[brianb00]

Martin,
Sounds like a good solution. Have you looked at CBT autopilots ? Just wondering your opinion.

BRian

 

[rwthomas1]

We could trade boats, straight across, if that would ease your pain...


Loren

Sounds good, I assume you will include shipping yours to the East Coast? They can take the E38 back with them!
RT

 

[Loren Beach]

Sounds good, I assume you will include shipping yours to the East Coast? They can take the E38 back with them!
RT

Don't I just Wish!!



Loren

 

[Ryan L]

Just curious, you have an E38, not a 38-200 right? I ask because I have a 200 and unless I'm mistaken there is plenty of room for a ram and separate tiller... In fact, I have all the components (except the tiller) and plan to do the install within the next few weeks. I'm not able to post pics right now but if I remember I'll try to post next week.

Nice setup Mark, however that wouldn't work on my E38. There is only about 1/4" clearance above the quadrant. No room for an additional tiller, so the solution was a G10 plate mounted on standoffs under the quadrant. Works great. RT

 

[rwthomas1]

Just curious, you have an E38, not a 38-200 right? I ask because I have a 200 and unless I'm mistaken there is plenty of room for a ram and separate tiller... In fact, I have all the components (except the tiller) and plan to do the install within the next few weeks. I'm not able to post pics right now but if I remember I'll try to post next week.

Yes, actually my boat is an E381. I can see how it would have been very simple for the factory to make room when they laid the hull up. A shorter rudder tube and a spacer is all that would be needed. That said, the modification to the quadrant is easy. A couple of hours to fab up the parts from G10 and install them. Dropping the rudder was obviously more work but I was replacing it anyway. In my install the tiller would have made things easier but not by much. The harder task is figuring out the ram mounting with all the angles involved, cutting the holes, building the ram mount and then installing the rudder position sensor. The quadrant is a minor detail in comparison.

RT

 

[Doug177]

jmk just made my point for me. Wheel pilots are adequate. He stated he preferred to steer "in those conditions" I can't comment on why one would want to steer, however I can tell you that a quartering sea with wind on the beam, or aft on an E38 will cause it to slew around, so much so, that careful attention need be paid by the helmsman to maintain course. In these conditions, and much wilder conditions, my Simrad will steer the boat better than I can! I view it as a safety issue. With a powerful, reliable autopilot you can attend to navigation and paying attention to traffic, etc. instead of hours of monotonous, taxing hand steering. It also works great in calm weather so you don't spill your drink....

I will take a few pics this weekend and post them.

RT

A powerful Autopilot can steer MUCH better and for LONGER than almost anybody. On our E35-3 steering with a 15 -25 kt breeze off the wind WILL wear anybody out. A Wheelpilot just doesn't cut it when sailing with much breeze at all on a broad reach or downwind. We have tried. Going to a B & G T1 Ram under the lazarette attached to the rudder shaft with an Edson tiller arm $$$$$ to provide backup for the quardrant. NAC-3 Computer, Precision 9 axial Compass, Simrad MFD. Will let everybody know how it works out.

 

[jailer]

A powerful Autopilot can steer MUCH better and for LONGER than almost anybody. On our E35-3 steering with a 15 -25 kt breeze off the wind WILL wear anybody out. A Wheelpilot just doesn't cut it when sailing with much breeze at all on a broad reach or downwind. We have tried. Going to a B & G T1 Ram under the lazarette attached to the rudder shaft with an Edson tiller arm $$$$$ to provide backup for the quardrant. NAC-3 Computer, Precision 9 axial Compass, Simrad MFD. Will let everybody know how it works out.

Do you have any updates to share on this project?

 

[Christian Williams]

My opinion:

A wheel pilot is great even on a 38, for typical conditions. It gives up at about 15-17 knots, just overpowered. Like any self-steering, it requires the sail plan to be balanced (reduced weather helm) as conditions challenge it. The Raymarine is pretty easy to install, cheap, and problem free.

A "real" autohelm, ram belowdecks, is required for heavy-duty cruising, along with wind-direction sensors. They're not easy to install on an Ericson, and cost money. They use power--a lot in heavy seas. But you don't need a wheel pilot. They're really nice to have.

Wind vane steering makes zero sense unless heading off long distances. But then it shines, because in heavy seas any self-steering is working like Hercules 24 hours a day. It's too complicated for day sailing, where you alter course a lot. And it probably costs more--maybe much more--than a belowdecks autopilot.

 

[Teranodon]

The Raymarine is pretty easy to install, cheap, and problem free.

For the EV-100, I recommend installing the optional rudder position sensor. It calms the autopilot's jitters - not completely, but significantly.