Replaced your SS Standing Rigging? What did you do?

[Kenneth K]

Just got the first half of my stainless rigging back from West Marine. The new stuff is very high quality. Problem is, the original Ericson rigging was a mismatch of sizes.

The deck u-bolts (chain-plate attachments) vary between .460-.480" in diameter (averaging out to just about 12mm). The toggles and turnbuckles that Ericson attached to these u-bolts are all sized at 3/8" (.375"). See below:



My new toggles and turnbuckle from West Marine are 7/16 (.4375") which don't quite fit over the u-bolts. I figured I could force the fit (it's only off by 3 to 4/100s of an inch), but not sure I want to do that to my new toggles.

Anyone else have this problem?

 

[Loren Beach]

I am puzzled. The few professional riggers that I know would take responsibility for the finished parts fitting the boat. Is the vendor not doing this? I presume that they would have had the original parts to measure and replicate. (?)
Hope this works out for you.
Also... do check the inside of the radius of each of the OEM U-bolts for a crack. It's been know to occur.

 

[peaman]

Also... do check the inside of the radius of each of the OEM U-bolts for a crack. It's been know to occur.

Would that likely be visible without removing or greatly loosening the respective shroud? I just launched with all new rigging, but my rigger did not look at the U bolts or chainplates.

 

[Loren Beach]

Would that likely be visible without removing or greatly loosening the respective shroud? I just launched with all new rigging, but my rigger did not look at the U bolts or chainplates.

The pix provided here in an older thread showed the "hidden" cracks on the inside of the radius. Some site searching should turn up a thread. I also recall that Garhauer produced new ones at a reasonable price, per the boat owner.

 

[Kenneth K]

I presume that they would have had the original parts to measure and replicate. (?)

At West Marine, they don't come out to the boat. You bring the rigging in and they match like-for-like. But like-for-like doesn't work if the OEM parts are nonstandard (I.e., toggles that fit 12mm u-bolts but use 3/8" clevis pins).

As for a traditional "comes-out-to your-boat" rigger, he would be facing the same problem unless he also owns/runs a machine shop and can fabricate his own parts.

Good idea to inspect the u-bolts themselves for wear/damage. This may be the link you were referring to:

E38 Chainplate U-Bolts and Replacements

The Navtec U-Bolts used to attach the shrouds to the deck on many Ericsons are similar to those pictured below. The original has a crack starting at the middle of the radius of the bend. I have found at least three (out of 8) that have at least one crack and the one pictured has a crack on both...

ericsonyachts.org

@peaman; did your rigger replace these lower toggles (that go around the u-bolts)? If so, what did he use?

 

[bigd14]

Ken, when I removed the original Ericson rigging it seemed like the toggles had been beaten into place around the U-bolts. There was the same gap between the turnbuckle body and the toggle that you can see in your photo and the toggles didn't seem to bear evenly on the U-bolts.
Our rigging has lasted 35-37 years, so I am guessing that force fitting the new toggles won't really cause too many problems.

 

[toddster]

I, too, found some weirdness. But I had WM replace like with like. As far as sizes, anyway. The old closed turnbuckles are no longer made. One problem was that I had no way of knowing whether the existing rigging was “original” on this old used boat. Another was that the chain plates, which I’m sure are original, all have different pin sizes, which mostly don’t match the wire size. The thing to do, of course, is to install new chain plates so that everything matches. But they’re embedded…

 

[Kenneth K]

when I removed the original Ericson rigging it seemed like the toggles had been beaten into place around the U-bolts.

Yeah, same with mine. I'll post some pictures later--all were misshapen in some way. Sounds like Ericson used the same 12mm u-blots across a wide range of boats (from at least 30-38 feet) then just bent/hammered/pressed the smaller toggles around them. My rigger says this causes two problems: 1) work hardening (re-bending) of the fittings, which makes them more brittle, and 2) point loading, where the saddle of the toggle doesn't seat evenly against the clevis pin.

Yet, as you say, the abused parts still survived nearly 40 years.

I guess all of these rigging replacement choices are matters of degree. One could replace everything from the chainplates to the upper toggles and then still have concerns about the aluminum masthead fitting that receives the fore and aft stays. It never ends with an old boat.

 

[peaman]

@peaman; did your rigger replace these lower toggles (that go around the u-bolts)? If so, what did he use?

The toggles and pin are original. The pin also goes through the eye of the new turnbuckle. Also, the toggles do not have any appearance of having been "beaten into place" as others have indicated here.

 

[Loren Beach]

Trivia: Turnbuckle link sizing to match those "forged" U Bolts from Navtec should have been allowed for when the boat was built out. AFAIK, those parts were not at all that unusual. Now, with that line of parts long out of production, it seems more difficult to source matching bits, but I would guess that a good rigger could do so.

 

[Kenneth K]

Trivia: Turnbuckle link sizing to match those "forged" U Bolts from Navtec should have been allowed for when the boat was built out. AFAIK, those parts were not at all that unusual.

That was my assumption, too, when I started this project, but it's appearing to be untrue. The only "stock" (non-custom) fittings that will properly fit a 12mm u-bolt are 12mm fittings (if you can find them) and 1/2" (12.7mm) fittings.*

On the 32-3, 3/8" turnbuckles were used for all the shrouds except the uppers, which use 7/16" turnbuckles. When you go to buy new 3/8 turnbuckles, all the dimensional fittings (bolt threads, eyes, toggles and pins) are all sized to 3/8". To attach a 3/8" turnbuckle toggle to a 12mm bolt, you have to (a) reuse the existing (old) toggle, (b) bend a new 3/8" toggle to enlarge it, or (c) have a custom part fabricated to accommodate the differences in size. Whether Ericson took the route of (b) or (c) is still unclear to me at this point.

Even a "good rigger" is limited to those three options. If hiring a rigger, it would be a worthwhile conversation to weigh the pros and cons of each choice. I would suspect, though, that most riggers don't want to get involved in the fabrication of custom parts: it's time consuming, expensive, and it muddies the chain of culpability if something goes wrong.

On a DYI project, it's your own choice to make, and your own responsibility for the results.

West Marine did offer a full refund on all the toggles that don't fit, and they referred me to their marine fabricator in Seattle to discuss further options.

*this may explain why the mis-fit issue is less prevalent on the larger boats--a 1/2" turnbuckle toggle will fit over a 12mm u-bolt without modification.

 

[Loren Beach]

Interesting stuff. Other members here have had new U-bolts built by Garhauer. Now I wonder what the OD was/is for those replacements?

 

[Kenneth K]

Ericson 3/8 turnbuckle toggles.

While maybe not exactly "beaten into place," the 3/8" toggles clearly were bent to get them to fit around 12mm u-bolts. All had varying degrees of being "horseshoe" shaped.

 

[bigd14]

Other members here have had new U-bolts built by Garhauer. Now I wonder what the OD was/is for those replacements?

Mine were 1/2 inch in diameter. I had Rigging Only provide me with toggles to fit the chainplates but with the correct pin size for each of the three lower fittings per side.

Here is my email to Rigging Only. We went back and forth with a couple emails then I shipped the lot to them and they duplicated them to perfection.

Good morning- I am interested in having the following items duplicated. I can send the originals to you. The only issue is with the lower fitting end. The side chainplates consist of 1/2 inch u-bolts, so the lower toggle has to fit around them. Photo of toggle below. I did not find anything like this on your website (the toggles found on your website have too little bearing area it seems). Is this something you can source or manufacture? If so, please verify my estimate of about $1500 from your website pricing for the list shown below, provide shipping instructions, and let me know approximate turnaround time.
Thank you,

Item	Wire Diameter	Factory Length	Actual Length at tension	Upper Fitting	Lower Stud/Turnbuckle Thread Size	Lower Fitting (use open body turnbuckles)
Headstay	9/32"	37'-4 3/4"	37'-5"	1/2" Pin Marine Eye	1/2"	Stud/Turnbuckle/1/2" Pin Toggle (1 1/2" Long)
Backstay	1/4"	40'-2"	40'-0"	1/2" Pin Marine Eye	7/16"	Stud/Turnbuckle/1/2" Pin Toggle (1 1/2" Long)
Backstay Bridle (x2)	3/16"	6'-0"	5"-11 3/4"	3/8" Pin Toggle	N/A	3/8" Pin Toggle
Backstay Triangle	N/A	N/A	N/A	1/2" Pin	N/A	3/8" Pin
Upper Stbd	1/4"	37'-7"	37'-6"	T-Bar	7/16"	Stud/Turnbuckle/7/16" Pin-1/2" U-Bolt Toggle (1 1/4" long)
Upper Port	1/4"	37'-7"	37'-6 1/4"	T-Bar	7/16"	Stud/Turnbuckle/7/16" Pin-1/2" U-Bolt Toggle (1 1/4" long)
Intermediate Stbd	3/16"	26'-9"	26'-8 1/2"	T-Bar	3/8"	Stud/Turnbuckle/3/8" Pin-1/2" U-Bolt Toggle (1" long)
Intermediate Port	3/16"	26'-9"	26'-8 1/2"	T-Bar	3/8"	Stud/Turnbuckle/3/8" Pin-1/2" U-Bolt Toggle (1" long)
Aft Stbd	9/32"	14'-3 3/4"	14'-4"	T-Bar	1/2"	Stud/Turnbuckle/1/2" Pin-1/2" U-Bolt Toggle (1 1/4" long)
Aft Port	9/32"	14'-3 3/4"	14'-4 1/2"	T-Bar	1/2"	Stud/Turnbuckle/1/2" Pin-1/2" U-Bolt Toggle (1 1/4" long)

And here are some photos of the rigging in place.

 

[peaman]

Ericson 3/8 turnbuckle toggles.

While maybe not exactly "beaten into place," the 3/8" toggles clearly were bent to get them to fit around 12mm u-bolts. All had varying degrees of being "horseshoe" shaped.

For comparison, I think my toggles may be original. Note the "crease" on the side of the lower stay toggle, to fit both the smaller pin length and the larger U-bolt.

 

[bigd14]

That crease must have been formed once the toggle was in place around the chainplate? I should probably install washers to ensure the eye fitting stays centered on the pin but I guess I’m not really too worried about it. The number of old rigs I see with janky connections that are still standing after 40 years gives me confidence!

 

[Christian Williams]

The crease looks result of cold bending, or at least it's similar to the crease on my backstay chain plate, which was bent in a powerful press.

Seems likely the piece was modified, or designed, to fit. Maybe.

 

[Guy Stevens]

This can be fixed with cold forming using a mandrel and a larger pin, along with a hammer and a vice.
It is not unusual in these older rigs, and is coming back into fashion (Read necessity) with some of the newer stupid multi hull tang designs.
How to do this easily: Place a rod of the appropriate diameter accross on top of the jaws of a vice, place the toggle over the rod. Tap with a sufficient hammer until the mandrel is in a sufficient distance into the toggle (Most often to the closed end of the toggle.)
With the rod still in the toggle, place the now splayed sides of the toggle in the vice and tighten the vice until the sides are again parallel.
Remove the mandrel and repeat as necessary to other toggles.
You will need to increase the grip length of the pins that go through the toggle.
There is of course a limit to the amount that toggles can be "opened". Use your head and think through the process.

 

[Kenneth K]

For comparison, I think my toggles may be original. Note the "crease" on the side of the lower stay toggle, to fit both the smaller pin length and the larger U-bolt.

None of my toggles have a crease in them. I would prefer that they did---it gives the appearance the work was done in a machine shop (presumably by a knowledgeable worker), versus the misshapen bends in some of mine.

I started taking Guy Steven's approach and have been doing some "re-working" of the new Hayn toggles I got from West Marine. Initial results are pretty promising. WM upsized my toggles to 7/16" so the difference between that and 12mm is only about 35/1000". It really doesn't take a lot of bending.


OEM 3/8 & 7/16 vs. Hayn 7/16 toggles.


Fit of each around a 12mm bit.

Though the OEM 3/8 toggle "fit" around the 12mm u-bolt, apparently, it never really seated properly. All the wear is on the sides, rather than the bottom bearing surface:

 

[Kenneth K]

A little progress....

This was the initial, poor, fit of my new 7/16" turnbuckle toggles around my 12mm u-bolts. It took great force to seat them any further, which was causing the sides to splay outward.



I went with Guy's advice (above) that a small amount of bending may be necessary to get new hardware to fit these old boats. At least I thought I could do better than some of the crude bends someone had made in the toggles I was replacing.

I couldn't bring myself to take a hammer directly to my new, finely crafted, $60 polished stainless Hayn toggles, so I did a little variation of what Guy mentioned. I laid a scrap piece of UHMW on the anvil of a vise so the bottom of the toggle wouldn't be dented/flattened. Then I placed a well-greased 1/2" SS bolt inside the toggle while holding the sides of the toggle with a bar clamp, and then pounded the bolt to the bottom of the toggle using a square punch wrapped in tape. Finally, I used the bar clamp to re-form the toggle jaws which had splayed open a bit after the bolt was fit.


When first attempting this using a 12mm bolt, I found the toggle would spring back into shape so the bolt wouldn't freely bottom-out in the toggle. It took a 1/2" bolt (.500") to put a permanent 12mm (.472") bend in the toggle. Likewise, to get the jaws straight afterward, I had to over-bend them in the clamp so they would spring back to parallel.

Here is the end result on my 4 new toggles:


I went up the mast yesterday to install the new aft lowers and intermediate shrouds, which were a great fit after addressing the toggles. I also took a trip up to the masthead to test fit the new headstay toggle. I'm getting more comfortable working up at the top. Once you get busy with the tools, you tend to forget about the height and just do what needs to be done. Still, a newer 7/16 VPC halyard (primary support), a backup rope (tied to the masthead fitting), and a webbing strap wrapped around the mast do add a little peace of mind to the climb.