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Rotten core at the bow

ki1025

Member II
There are a few things about the 1974 E27 that we have concerns with.

Another is that the bow of the boat on the deck is very springy/squishy. I've read basically every thread on this site and other about rotten cores. The rot extends about 20 inches back from the bow. The PO replaced a portion in the center of the deck about 4 years ago when he noticed it was rotten with a square piece of closed cell foam. The repair wasn't the best-he went from the top and now where the edge of the repair on the bow side it is leaking through into the vberth. im thinking possibly where the water is coming from along with leaking deck hardware. Im pretty sure your supposed to use the same kind of material as the rest of the core when you do repairs.

So my question is this. the rest of the deck seems hard, no other springy places. How fast does the bow need to be repaired? I know eventually it would be good for the whole deck to be repaired, but we just dont have the money right now.

If the bow is rotten, will it migrate to other areas and rot them as well over time. Should we bite the bullet and just repair the bow section now and worry about the rest later to prevent future damage? How easy is a repair like this when the boat is in the water-masted-and for a novice? I've heard of people going in through the anchor locker to do deck repairs, is that the best way(non skid on top doesnt matter as the PO messed it up with his repair)? Any idea on the cost of doing it yourself, vs having someone do it?:confused:

Thanks so much.

ki1025
1974 E27
New Orleans, La
 

Lucky Dog

Member III
Welcome

we have e35II- 1973. The PO didn't reseat the deck hardware correctly. In less than 3 years most of the core is mush and smells. I have be restring old boats and homes most of my life...if I had to buy new I would be in a trailer and sailing dory. I grind my teeth every time I run across a poor repair. It is so much more work to correct.

Is the fore deck without any texture; nonskid? Though a bit more pre planning I went into the foredeck rotten core from below. It is uncomfortable, hot and nasty way, but the non skid is in-tacked.

There are fiberglass and resin bracing that separates the core into zones. On the 35 the braces are even with the aft end of the fore deck.

You have to stop the migration of water and balsa wicks really well. You can drink through like a straw.

ml
 

ki1025

Member II
Welcome

w

Is the fore deck without any texture; nonskid?

ml

The foredeck has some nonskid but its unimportant because the PO repair messed that up to begin with. the deck will be sanded and repainted eventually..so going through the top is ok..I dont know how long a repair like that would take if we did it ourselves, or how much it would cost. ideas?

Does anyone think it would be better to hire someone to do this work? Anyone know a round about how much having the bow recored would cost? is there a way to do it while the boat is in the water with the mast still up?

So we were thinking of leaving the spot on the deck rotten for a few years..do ya'll think this is a bad idea and if possible fix it asap to prevent further damage?

Thanks again
 

Lucky Dog

Member III
The moisture that is in there already will continue spread and rot. Every time the deck heat and cools during the day the moisture will spread.

I have disorder when it comes to paying someone else. If your going to remove the non skid anyway, do it your self. Some marines/boatyard won't let you do you own work for something like that.

Some body posted the picts where three guys did all the decks on a three day weekend while the boat was in the water.

I would think a long weekend would work.

Once you open it up you must be able to cover in case of rain or dew if over night.

I always figure I can screw it up three times and still be cheaper. And its my boat so I care more that pro.

Any chance to buy more tools is good.

ml
 

ki1025

Member II
Thanks for the inspiration to diy.

another thing i was thinking was was to isolate the moisture in the bow..like cutting a 2 inch wide strip just aft of the rot..to be able to do the repair later years from now. also rebed all the deck hardware the right way to prevent further leaking.

another thing was maybe to cut out the little triangle about 20 inches back and just fill with epoxy..to be able to the repair later and prevent moisture from migrating and rotting the rest of the deck.

Any ideas on this?

also if we decide to do it ourselves how long and how much would it cost do you think it would take to do just the bow area? steps?

cut top layer off
make a rain dew cover
dig out rotten wood-any remaining wood
make a pattern with something and get two pieces of foam or balsa to fit in the bow.
sand the bottom layer of fiberglass
epoxy then lay down new core and let cure
then layer fiberglass on top (4 layers) with cure time and sanding each time.

the boat is in the water and it can be reached on all three side from the dock that runs in front and on each side.
 

Loren Beach

O34 - Portland, OR
Senior Moderator
Blogs Author

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selous

Inactive Member
Hi,sorry to hear about your problem.An effective and less destructive way to repair yours,since it sounds like a smaller area is to drill a few 5/8" holes just through the top skin,allow to dry thoroughly over a week and then using a turkey baster fill the area with smith & co penetrating epoxy.Check out the link below for all the info you need.I have used this on other boats for small areas with great success.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...8&title=Core+Damage+Repair+-+Smith+&+Co.+CPES
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
Can you get some pics of the areas? If it was mine I would fix the area due to stress from the forstay.

I have seen a total deck redone with drilling small holes in the deck creating a grid, then attaching a Allen wrench to the chuck on a drill and removing the rotten material, then adding thinned epoxy to the holes to fill the voids with solid material, the deck area and non skid can be repaired with filling the holes with epoxy, and then gelcoat the top of the deck matching the color. You can even make a female mould of the nonskid and match the patteren. I did this on the deck of our old Capri 25 when the PO hit another boat putting a 36" long crack in the deck and a good size hole in the hull.

DIY- it's fiberglass, if you mess it up you can grind it out and start over, the deck area is pretty easy, I had to build several bends, track inserts going down the hull and mutiple layups of different materials.

I would say the job can be done in two 8 hr days, and you are looking at 200.00 for materials. If you let it go unfixed it could cost you thousands.
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
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ki1025

Member II
Hi,sorry to hear about your problem.An effective and less destructive way to repair yours,since it sounds like a smaller area is to drill a few 5/8" holes just through the top skin,allow to dry thoroughly over a week and then using a turkey baster fill the area with smith & co penetrating epoxy.Check out the link below for all the info you need.I have used this on other boats for small areas with great success.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.co...8&title=Core+Damage+Repair+-+Smith+&+Co.+CPES

Thanks so much for that link. The area is pretty springy. Do you think this method would work for completely rotten wood? What about rain and dew? would a rain cover protect it enough? It gets really hot down here in the summer-do you think the summer time is a better place to allow drying?
 

ki1025

Member II
Can you get some pics of the areas? If it was mine I would fix the area due to stress from the forstay.

I have seen a total deck redone with drilling small holes in the deck creating a grid, then attaching a Allen wrench to the chuck on a drill and removing the rotten material, then adding thinned epoxy to the holes to fill the voids with solid material, the deck area and non skid can be repaired with filling the holes with epoxy, and then gelcoat the top of the deck matching the color. You can even make a female mould of the nonskid and match the patteren. I did this on the deck of our old Capri 25 when the PO hit another boat putting a 36" long crack in the deck and a good size hole in the hull.

DIY- it's fiberglass, if you mess it up you can grind it out and start over, the deck area is pretty easy, I had to build several bends, track inserts going down the hull and mutiple layups of different materials.

I would say the job can be done in two 8 hr days, and you are looking at 200.00 for materials. If you let it go unfixed it could cost you thousands.

I like the sound of that and the price. Do you think removal of the wood and replacement with epoxy is a better solution than letting it dry for a week?

I've attached a pic of the bow-its the area in front of the cleat in the middle of the deck to the point in the bow. When we got the boat all the hardware leaked. We have done temp solution and filled with silicone. we are going to go back and rebed soon the right way (overdrill, epoxy, countersink). Do you think its better to do the deck repair first then the hardware or does it matter?

If we stop any further water from getting in the deck from the hardware-is it hopeful that the water damage will stay isolated to the small area in the bow? if not any idea how long it would take for the damage to spread?

thank again.
 

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selous

Inactive Member
It's a bit hard to tell from the pic but the discolored area around the cleat seems to be the problem.If I'm correct in this assumption then I believe the penetrating epoxy to treat the surrounding core as well as the affected core followed up by a filler epoxy once everything is dry would do the job,it will still probably cost you $150 or so. Cutting out that piece of deck as mentioned is the other.If you go the penetrating epoxy route you need dry weather or to construct a little shelter over the bow.Note that the Smith & co product has two formula's one for warm weather and one for cold.I live down south so for me it is not an issue!
 

selous

Inactive Member
Another thought occurred to me is that if the p o cut a pice out of the top skin and that is bad then your only option will be to rip it back out and as mentioned by another member,time is of the essence because the bow is the highest point and any water entering there will quickly (within a matter of months) start turning all the other core downstream to mush!
 

ki1025

Member II
Another thought occurred to me is that if the p o cut a pice out of the top skin and that is bad then your only option will be to rip it back out and as mentioned by another member,time is of the essence because the bow is the highest point and any water entering there will quickly (within a matter of months) start turning all the other core downstream to mush!

The PO did a repair further aft of that cleat. The repair he did is solid, no springy at all, but it messed up the nonskid on the bow. We definitely dont want the rest of the deck to turn to mush so fixing it would be the thing to do. Do you recommend fixing the deck area by drying or complete re coring before or after we do the overdrill/eposy deck hardware repair? We could put a tarp over the top of the area while it dried..

Thanks again so much for your input.
 

selous

Inactive Member
You could do both at the same time,but you will have to let both areas dry thoroughly first.Just follow the video info to the letter and you can't go wrong,as for the anti skid area that is messed up,you can always sand and paint new anti skid on that small part triangle of the fore deck,take away some of the good anti skid as well to make it even.
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
1. Fix the spongy area to cut the rot out.

2. Be sure to add some kind of backing plate to the cleat when you drill out the area for the new hardware and fill with solid epoxy, use large washers on the interior or a solid plate.

3. color match the gelcoat on the deck, clean area with asetone, and apply two layers of gelcoat, leave the first layer to blush and then cover the second coat with PVA to cure. I did all of the non skid on the deck area and matched the color. If it has been painted then you will need to paint the area over.

The boats were polyester resign so the gelcoat will work fine if it has not been painted over from the first repair, remember that the gelcoat is just colored resign, you can build it up and grind it to match any shape. If you color match the gelcoat the difference will be the shinny new gelcoat, so you will need to compound out the area to knock off the shine, compound any flat areas then polishing compound then wax with a buffer. I used a small roller for our non-skid and taped the whole area off, cleaned really well with asetone, then applied gelcoat, then covered with the PVA.

Keep the gelcoat thin and work fast, have everything premixed and just apply the MEKP to the gelcoat, I prematched ours and have a small can of each color left over for any other repairs.

Spend the next month looking on the Internet reading and making notes of what you are going to do, get a plan down and get all of your materials together. Start a small project in your garage and play with the mixing of the gelcoat, take note the colder the air is the longer it will take to kick, play with different rollers (i used a really small 3") and in the next month you will be a pro.

Take care with these materials, cover your eyes with gogles, gloves, and wear a mask----Safty First.
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
I didn't know anything about fiberglass before I started this project

12b800x600.jpg


2b800x6002.jpg


Gound out all crushed glass, built up layers of mat, and cloth to fill hole in deck and hull, built up t-track area and ground out and shaped the area for the t-track to match existing glass.

3f800x6002.jpg


Finished Project

07800x6002.jpg


I sanded the hull, primered, repainted with two part epoxy paint, and re-gelcoated the repaired deck area.

1P800x600-1.jpg


Finshed Hull and adding in the gelcoat non-skid, I made a male mould to match the non-skid.

4f800x6002.jpg


Racing in a regatta - Note you can see the color difference in the non-skid areas

9800x600-1.jpg
 

ki1025

Member II
thanks for the direction, great pics..It gives me hope that we will be able to do well. I like the thought of going the route of the little holes first and let it dry. Its cool here now-does the temperature matter much? Im afraid to wait till it warms up in a few months due to further damage. like its been like 50's during the day/30's at night-with rain once a week.

I read we should let it dry before we try to get out any rot. Would hair dryers work every so often to speed the process up?

Another thought I had although I afraid we wont be able to get to all the rot, is to go drill the little holes through the anchor locker from the inside. and let it dry this way. There is a heater, ac and de humidifier on the boat that is on at all times and it could be left to dry to a much longer time being its not having to be protected from the rain. We would rebed all the hardware before we started the drying process although I'm not sure how it would work with the holes Just a thought to protect it from the weather.

If we drill the little holes and let it dry for a week or two and we start the epoxy filler process but its not dry enough then we need to cut the whole thing out.

Im wondering if maybe its just a better idea to do it the right way the first time and cut the deck open to right behind the cleat (the discoloration aft and port of the cleat is where the edge of the PO previous repair, he repaired it with closed cell foam. Maybe we should just cut the whole thing open, remove all the core to the foam and recore it the best we can, and fiberglass the whole thing in. Think we could tackle that in 2 8hr days? any idea how much that amount of balsa would cost. Do you know how thick it is? would it be better to put balsa wood back or foam like the PO repair? thanks.
 

CSMcKillip

Moderator
Moderator
thanks for the direction, great pics..It gives me hope that we will be able to do well. I like the thought of going the route of the little holes first and let it dry. Its cool here now-does the temperature matter much? Im afraid to wait till it warms up in a few months due to further damage. like its been like 50's during the day/30's at night-with rain once a week.

Read what George did on his San jaun 24, he drilled small holes thru the entire deck, drilled larger holes on the top of the deck to remove any rotten balsa, starting in small sections he would tape up the holes starting at the lowest point and moved up in elevation to fill the core with slid epoxy. The balsa is used to stiffen the deck sandwich, solid glass would make the repair solid glass, there will be remains of rotten balsa left in the mix, but if you use thinned epoxy or getrot you can leave most of the balsa in the core. Boats would be solid glass (like the hull) but its cheaper to add the end core balsa. Solid plywood is used where deck hardware is to be mounted.

I read we should let it dry before we try to get out any rot. Would hair dryers work every so often to speed the process up? Anything would help and without opening up the areas by drilling thru the deck you will spend weeks getting everything dry, read the getrot website, they shoud lead you in the right direction

http://www.rotdoctor.com/glass/GLrotrepair.html

Another thought I had although I afraid we wont be able to get to all the rot, is to go drill the little holes through the anchor locker from the inside. and let it dry this way. There is a heater, ac and de humidifier on the boat that is on at all times and it could be left to dry to a much longer time being its not having to be protected from the rain. We would rebed all the hardware before we started the drying process although I'm not sure how it would work with the holes Just a thought to protect it from the weather.

Water is not your friend right now and you will need to make every efort to open up the rotted area, fix the area noted and get something to close the repair.

If we drill the little holes and let it dry for a week or two and we start the epoxy filler NO FILLER, THINNED polyester resin process but its not dry enough then we need to cut the whole thing out.

Read the above URL

Im wondering if maybe its just a better idea to do it the right way the first time and cut the deck open to right behind the cleat (the discoloration aft and port of the cleat is where the edge of the PO previous repair, he repaired it with closed cell foam. Maybe we should just cut the whole thing open, remove all the core to the foam and recore it the best we can, and fiberglass the whole thing in.

It depends on your time line and buget, you could open up a huge mess with 1/2 of your deck ripped open.



Think we could tackle that in 2 8hr days? any idea how much that amount of balsa would cost. Do you know how thick it is? would it be better to put balsa wood back or foam like the PO repair? thanks.

No, I think by removing the fiberglass deck, removing the balsa core, replacing and glassing in the new core material, champhering the deck area, attachig the skin back to the core, and fixing the cutlines in the glass is a 4 weekend job.

My 2 cents is to drill the holes, drill some weeps thru the sandwich to speed up the draining process, by the getrot, rotdoctor, thinned polyester resign, and fix the area. If you can get a cement vibrator and pad the end of it, I think with a couple of well placed holes and getting the thinned resign in a syringe to get into the areas you can make the deck solid.

I hope this helps, I spent several months reading during the winter months, and waited till spring to get started, you will want the temp outside 70+
 
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