Sailcloth weight, size, for new sails

[JEZ]

I am having new sails made for my E27 and will be sailing the Salish Sea in WA and the coast of BC. My previous late spring through early fall experience here has been one of predominantly lighter winds with occasional strong gusts or fronts coming through. I want to optimize sailcloth weight choice based on these experiences. Sailmakers have suggested weights from 5.93 to 7.45. That’s quite a range of weight differences. The E27 is a heavy displacement, rather slow boat. I need all the lift I can get for sailing in light air. Are there others who have the E27 or a similarly sized boat who can share their experience with sailcloth weight performance in this region?
Additionally, I am leaning strongly toward a 110 jib and a Code C. I think it will be a good combo for the close reaching (N) to a broad reach (S) often encountered in the narrower waterways. Have you utilized a similar combination and to what effect?
I already have a genoa and a storm jib so those don’t need to be considered here.

Thanks, appreciated!

 

[Christian Williams]

It's pretty simple. Heavier cloth lasts longer and such sails can be made with simple patterns. The lighter the weight, the more emphasis on sophisticated cuts to preserve shape.

Also, cloth gets more expensive as it gets lighter and stronger for the same weight. Those dark colored composite sails on racing boats are extremely light and resistant to stretch. They don't last very long, but are designed for optimal virtue in racing.

The tradeoffs are many, but basically heavy crosscut sails are cheapest and versatile, and from there up the sophistication scale things get lighter and hold shape better. Beyond personal choice of cut and cost for cruisers, any kind of racing means the best sails you can afford. They make a difference head to head, both real and psychological.

My personal opinion in your case is the light end of the spectrum in sailcloth. But it takes a sailmaker to judge the combo of batten length, local conditions, use and budget. Here's my solution and some sailmaker comments:

 

[Pete the Cat]

You seem to be doing good thinking. My observation is that most cruising buy sails that are too big--perhaps thinking they can roller reef them--without realizing how awful reefed sails actually work. Most of the lift in a sail is in the first third of the sail so the added size is often just a problem of more wear on the stitching (which is a problem in sail longevity as much as the cloth itself) from tacking. I sail my Ericson on SF Bay and use a 95% jib in 8 or 9 oz cloth and it is great--even in the light winds of winter here. I sail my Tartan 37 in the more variable wind of Penobscot Maine and have a 120% which I will pare down to a 100% or 110% if I live long enough to buy another sail. I use a reaching spinnaker on both boats in light air. I rarely race, but seem to do nicely against other cruisers with much longer waterlines, if they are not aware they are in a race. I am not much in favor of a third reef on boats under 40 feet. I have generally have the second reef a bit deeper and forgo the 3rd--if things get that windy I have never thought about making three efforts to reef. What matters is what works for you the way you sail and where you sail. Helpful, huh?

 

[Kenneth K]

I rarely race, but seem to do nicely against other cruisers with much longer waterlines, if they are not aware they are in a race.

 

[Mr. Scarlett]

It's pretty simple. Heavier cloth lasts longer and such sails can be made with simple patterns. The lighter the weight, the more emphasis on sophisticated cuts to preserve shape.

Also, cloth gets more expensive as it gets lighter and stronger for the same weight. Those dark colored composite sails on racing boats are extremely light and resistant to stretch. They don't last very long, but are designed for optimal virtue in racing.

The tradeoffs are many, but basically heavy crosscut sails are cheapest and versatile, and from there up the sophistication scale things get lighter and hold shape better. Beyond personal choice of cut and cost for cruisers, any kind of racing means the best sails you can afford. They make a difference head to head, both real and psychological.

My personal opinion in your case is the light end of the spectrum in sailcloth. But it takes a sailmaker to judge the combo of batten length, local conditions, use and budget. Here's my solution and some sailmaker comments:

I wasn't able to find the thread, but curious how you find the low cut genoa now that you've had it for a while.

 

[Christian Williams]

It's fine. A pennant to raise it up a bit provides visibility. You do have to move the fairleads more often when furled to different square footage. there is no difference in performance.

Really, it's just a looks thing. I find I like to look as different as possible from current boats with battenless in-mast furling and ugly jibs flying over clouds of superstructure shade canvas designed to hide sun and view of the sails and add preposterous windage to be solved by a bow thruster.

This may be as out of tune as a dusty banjo, but no suggestion of imitation is implied. Higher clew is popular for a reason.

 

[Alan Gomes]

Really, it's just a looks thing. I find I like to look as different as possible from current boats with battenless in-mast furling and ugly jibs flying over clouds of superstructure shade canvas designed to hide sun and view of the sails and add preposterous windage to be solved by a bow thruster.

Well, there you have it! (Quite right, by the way.)

 

[JEZ]

You seem to be doing good thinking. My observation is that most cruising buy sails that are too big--perhaps thinking they can roller reef them--without realizing how awful reefed sails actually work. Most of the lift in a sail is in the first third of the sail so the added size is often just a problem of more wear on the stitching (which is a problem in sail longevity as much as the cloth itself) from tacking. I sail my Ericson on SF Bay and use a 95% jib in 8 or 9 oz cloth and it is great--even in the light winds of winter here. I sail my Tartan 37 in the more variable wind of Penobscot Maine and have a 120% which I will pare down to a 100% or 110% if I live long enough to buy another sail. I use a reaching spinnaker on both boats in light air. I rarely race, but seem to do nicely against other cruisers with much longer waterlines, if they are not aware they are in a race. I am not much in favor of a third reef on boats under 40 feet. I have generally have the second reef a bit deeper and forgo the 3rd--if things get that windy I have never thought about making three efforts to reef. What matters is what works for you the way you sail and where you sail. Helpful, huh?

Thanks for the on-target comments. I think I’m going with the 6.63 Dacron crosscut. I suspect the 5.93 would work better in most light airs, but I have concerns about that weight in the blows that come up now and then. I chose the 110 as a versatile size, large enough to slightly overlap for more power but still pretty easy to bring through the fore-triangle on a tack. I have a larger genoa but I think this headsail will be up most often. I’ve considered a 100, rather than the 110%. Why have you chosen the 95%, and consider taking the Tartan sail to a 100 or 110%. What has your experience been with those variations in size in various wind conditions? SF Bay gets wind! The PNW usually has very light air in summer; there’s lots of motoring going on then. I never have the luxury of changing from a 100 to a 110% to actually experience the difference. I wish I could. I’ve been sailing a 47’ boat with larger sails and roller reefing.I know I want to avoid that on my E27’. I feel the addition of Code sails has really changed options for cruisers. Thanks.

 

[JEZ]

It's fine. A pennant to raise it up a bit provides visibility. You do have to move the fairleads more often when furled to different square footage. there is no difference in performance.

Really, it's just a looks thing. I find I like to look as different as possible from current boats with battenless in-mast furling and ugly jibs flying over clouds of superstructure shade canvas designed to hide sun and view of the sails and add preposterous windage to be solved by a bow thruster.

This may be as out of tune as a dusty banjo, but no suggestion of imitation is implied. Higher clew is popular for a reason.

View attachment 45924

I agree with you about the pennant. They do allow for better visibility with low-cut sails. I really like the Code sails offered now.

 

[Loren Beach]

Having lived with a 97% for a decade, the ease of tacking is great for small crews or single handing. If your sail is for roller furling I would also advocate for vertical battens. Our sail has three, and they allow for a more powerful upper sail area, where a small-overlap sail has so little area. This does add noticeable upper area in the sail.
Still, there are always compromises. We find that we are indeed underpowered in TW under about 8 kt. The reward is that, with a reef in the main we are perfectly powered up at 18 to 20 TW.

Pretty good picture of our boat in this thread, last of the set. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/four-o-34s-under-sail.19175/
And here: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/media/o-34-close-hulled.19173/

We have at least one sail maker who checks in here sometimes, and their advice has been to go with a smaller jib and then add a 'code' sail for light wind. For general sailing, a sail "inventory" just does not look like it did back in the 80's. At all.

 

[JEZ]

It's pretty simple. Heavier cloth lasts longer and such sails can be made with simple patterns. The lighter the weight, the more emphasis on sophisticated cuts to preserve shape.

Also, cloth gets more expensive as it gets lighter and stronger for the same weight. Those dark colored composite sails on racing boats are extremely light and resistant to stretch. They don't last very long, but are designed for optimal virtue in racing.

The tradeoffs are many, but basically heavy crosscut sails are cheapest and versatile, and from there up the sophistication scale things get lighter and hold shape better. Beyond personal choice of cut and cost for cruisers, any kind of racing means the best sails you can afford. They make a difference head to head, both real and psychological.

My personal opinion in your case is the light end of the spectrum in sailcloth. But it takes a sailmaker to judge the combo of batten length, local conditions, use and budget. Here's my solution and some sailmaker comments:

Thanks for sharing. I’ve watched all of your videos ove the years and have really enjoyed them! Love that you did solo trips to Hawaii and back. Did the sailmaker say he used 6.5 oz cloth for your genoa? I wonder if he was using US weights…? Do you know the weight of your new mainsail? Thanks again!

 

[JEZ]

Having lived with a 97% for a decade, the ease of tacking is great for small crews or single handing. If your sail is for roller furling I would also advocate for vertical battens. Our sail has three, and they allow for a more powerful upper sail area, where a small-overlap sail has so little area. This does add noticeable upper area in the sail.
Still, there are always compromises. We find that we are indeed underpowered in TW under about 8 kt. The reward is that, with a reef in the main we are perfectly powered up at 18 to 20 TW.

Pretty good picture of our boat in this thread, last of the set. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/four-o-34s-under-sail.19175/
And here: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/media/o-34-close-hulled.19173/

We have at least one sail maker who checks in here sometimes, and their advice has been to go with a smaller jib and then add a 'code' still for light wind. For general sailing, a sail "inventory" just does not look like it did back in the 80's. At all.I completely agree with you about newer sail inventories. I’m still feeling pretty good about the 110% jib, along with a Code C. I think that would cover a lot of the sailing conditions I’ll find.

 

[JEZ]

Having lived with a 97% for a decade, the ease of tacking is great for small crews or single handing. If your sail is for roller furling I would also advocate for vertical battens. Our sail has three, and they allow for a more powerful upper sail area, where a small-overlap sail has so little area. This does add noticeable upper area in the sail.
Still, there are always compromises. We find that we are indeed underpowered in TW under about 8 kt. The reward is that, with a reef in the main we are perfectly powered up at 18 to 20 TW.

Pretty good picture of our boat in this thread, last of the set. https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/four-o-34s-under-sail.19175/
And here: https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/media/o-34-close-hulled.19173/

We have at least one sail maker who checks in here sometimes, and their advice has been to go with a smaller jib and then add a 'code' still for light wind. For general sailing, a sail "inventory" just does not look like it did back in the 80's. At all.

I agree with you about the newer sail inventories. Since I’ll be in so much light air, I’m still leaning strongly toward the 110% jib, combined with a Code C, and a mainsail with a deep 2nd reef. Thanks for sharing. I enjoyed the pics and know how much fun it is to be on the water with friends! It’s always a race!

 

[Christian Williams]

Do you know the weight of your new mainsail?

Economy, longevity, tradition.

 

[Pete the Cat]

Thanks for the on-target comments. I think I’m going with the 6.63 Dacron crosscut. I suspect the 5.93 would work better in most light airs, but I have concerns about that weight in the blows that come up now and then. I chose the 110 as a versatile size, large enough to slightly overlap for more power but still pretty easy to bring through the fore-triangle on a tack. I have a larger genoa but I think this headsail will be up most often. I’ve considered a 100, rather than the 110%. Why have you chosen the 95%, and consider taking the Tartan sail to a 100 or 110%. What has your experience been with those variations in size in various wind conditions? SF Bay gets wind! The PNW usually has very light air in summer; there’s lots of motoring going on then. I never have the luxury of changing from a 100 to a 110% to actually experience the difference. I wish I could. I’ve been sailing a 47’ boat with larger sails and roller reefing.I know I want to avoid that on my E27’. I feel the addition of Code sails has really changed options for cruisers. Thanks.

To answer your question, my experience is that the added sail area beyond 100% has more downsides than upsides in the areas where I sail (Maine Coast and SF Bay). Both places have light winds occasionally (SF Bay in the winter and Maine winds are variable in the Summer) when I am there, but the added 10% or 20% of overlap does not really add much power in my experience. I fly an asymmetric and a spinnaker in very light downwind situations (I can do this single handed) and will do so if I am going far enough to justify the setup effort because these sails seem to give more stability and speed than a big genoa . Over the 40 years I have been sailing my sails seem to wear out threads in the leech and clew more than any other place and that is from contact with the mast and shrouds--and bigger jib overlap makes for much more wear.. Also, there is more opportunity for fouling lines in tacking with a bigger sail and that is annoying. I only do fun racing occasional--and finish well generally. From an aerodynamic perspective almost all the lift in a sail is in the first third of the chord---so that added amount does not do much. I have not seen any analysis of this--just my experience in the places I sail. I have sailed in the PNW (not on my boats) and recognize that you have a lot of very light air situations to deal with and maybe things are different there.

 

[Christian Williams]

I agree with Ray about headsail size, and note that he also has an asym and a spinnaker, and uses them. I'm convinced the asyms are the answer to formerly necessary very large genoas (in the old days of hanks everybody had 160s and bigger, very light cloth, had to change them at 10 knots apparent, there were at least three jibs on board and headsail changes felt continuous and the boat was full of wet sail bags all the time).

In contrast, I have no sail inventory. I use only the main and one genoa, currently a 130, and they have to do it all. In breezy conditions I furl the headsail as necessary, right down to a scrap in 30 knots. And dead downwind in light air, a 130 has enough area to work, although the whisker pole has to be long.

In sum, if flying an asymmetrical or a classic spinnaker, no need for a big genoa and its overlap issues. If not, a medium-sized genny is a good compromise, and as the only headsail it needs to be cloth of a weight or cut capable of heavy air when partly furled.

But bear also in mind that I will be 80 next summer, meaning limited sail inventory isn't the only compromise aboard .

 

[JEZ]

Do you know the weight of your new mainsail?

Economy, longevity, tradition.

View attachment 46147

Thank you for sharing!

 

[Christian Williams]

For the record, "Dimension Polyant" is a brand of sailcloth manufacturer.

"HMTO" denotes the finish. Sailcloth these days has variable surface hardness, unlike back when we just stuffed it into sail bags without a care in the world. .